The Blue Planet Show

Wing Foil Interview: Clifford Coetzer- Unifoil on the Blue Planet Show episode 20

In this conversation Clifford Coetzer, the founder and designer at Unifoil goes over tips for wing foil beginners, his background, how he started making foils and started Unifoil, foil design evolution, construction, stiffness, tradeoffs, testing prototypes, foil characteristics, and more, I hope you enjoy this interview as much as I did, thank you for your support and positive feedback. Aloha, Robert Stehlik For more information on Unifoil, please visit: https://www.uni-foil.com

Transcript:

Aloha  friends. It's Robert Stehlik welcome to another episode of the blue planet show in today's interview. I'm speaking with Clifford from uni foil. He's in South Africa, I'm in Hawaii. So there's like a 12 hour time difference. There's a little bit of a delay and so on, but it's a great conversation.

And we get into detail on foil design tips for beginners tips, for more advanced people, all kinds of technical things about the foils. I'm trying to wrap my head around all the different aspects of how everything works together, and Clifford's really good at explaining it and making sense of it.

And obviously he's tried a lot of different things. He's one of the first people to come out with the high aspect foil. And so he's definitely one of the pioneers in foil design. Really good conversation. Hope you enjoy it. Please make sure to give it a thumbs up if you like it, make sure to subscribe to the blue planet surf YouTube channel down below.

I'll put some links down in the description as well. For the uni foil website, you can watch the blue planet show right here on YouTube, or you can also listen to it on your favorite podcast app to search for the blue planet show. And without further ado here is Clifford. Okay, Clifford. Welcome to the show.

How are you doing today? Good Robert. Thanks for having me on man. What a privilege? Awesome. To finally meet you. Yeah. Fi glad to finally get you on the show. So here in Hawaii, it's 8:00 PM in the evening. And for you, it's 8:00 AM in, in Cape, in South Africa and Jeffrey bay. That's where you're at. That's right?

Yeah. Just the start of the day. Yeah. So how long have you been living in Jeffreys bay or is you born and raised there or? Uh, No. I was actually born in Johannesburg. But at a young age I moved over to England and then I've been coming over to Jeffrey bay on holiday. So I've actually got a house year.

I've been coming here for 20 years and then about 10 years ago, I actually moved to Jeffrey bay. Excellent. So trying to start off season with some tips for beginners last year, I kind had it, the, of this, I asked the question, what are some tips for beginners, but I wanted kind turn it around. So for the beginners watching, what are some good tips for people that want to get into wing foiling?

For myself, I only started wing foiling last year and my biggest tip is to use the right equipment. That is critical. So myself being a bit of a heavier rider I'm about hundred and four kilos, about 230 pounds to use the right equipment is essential, especially if you in light wind. My advice is to be overpowered.

Rather a wing that is a little bit too big a board that is too big and a fo that is too big. It just makes the whole learning process so much easier. If you use your equipment, that's too small.  then it becomes a struggle. It becomes, it's just hard work. It's a nightmare. So in the beginning, overpowered for sure.

If possible I would recommend one or two sessions behind a boat just to be pulled behind a boat and just get, just to break down the whole process so that you don't have a ring in your hands and a foil trying to do both at the same time. So if you can get going with just the foil behind a boat toe session, get just the feeding of the foil coming up outta the water.

Great. And then with the ring itself, going on just the normal sub-board walking on dry land, getting a feel for how the ring works and then combining the two together. I find that works really well. And of course, nothing beats having someone who's got experience, if you go off by yourself it's difficult.

But if you've got an instructor or someone who's already wing foing and they watch you, and they can tell you're doing this wrong, you're doing that wrong cry. This cry, this, that, that advice is gold, highly recommended. If you go like a school or something rather go someone who's already competent at wing, foing it, it just makes the whole process, the whole journey so much more pleasant.

Yeah. Those are some great tips, I think. And I think most of us. Everybody's still new to the sport. So we remember what it was like to learn and are happy to help others too. Yeah, just ask for help. And and just keep in mind too, that it can be dangerous in the beginning too.

If if you fall on your foil and, as a surfer, like usually you try to kind catch yourself if you're falling, but that's the wrong instinct when you're foiling. You wanna just eject as, as quickly as possible 100%. Yeah, 100%. I think in the beginning days when you're trading water, you only kick the foil once or twice and you learn very quickly don't trade water, rather hang on the board, but yeah, with foing you, you learn very quickly, don't try and save it rather as you say, object off the foil and get going again.

It's so much save so much easier. Okay. I'm just put, pulling up your website here. So out of your lineup what, which foil do you like for someone your size? What foil did you start on? I started on a hyper I started on, on, we used to do quite a big one a two 50. I then switched over to the two 10, and that's what I use now at the moment.

I dunno if much about the hype's been around for quite a few years. So we are actually working on a version two at the moment, which will be released very soon. The hyper ones have been out now for

20, about five years now. So they've been around for quite a while. Yeah. So that's actually a high aspect wing. Yeah. So you were one of the first to you to bring out a wing that was had a really high aspect ratio, right? Like one of the first to bring out a wing like that.

Yeah. So what happened was I was working with with Ivan and Nathan from signature at the time. And they started doing down winding here in Cape town. And I said to Ivan can he put a GPS on Nathan? And just to see what sort of speeds is he doing? And I knew immediately that a high spec would be very efficient.

So I started doing prototypes and I did the first high spec for, and yeah, watching those GPS graphs was well, it was amazing to, to see that he could be on the fo for so long. Cause I back then, if I was on the foil for 60 seconds, this is a long time. And you had, he was writing for 13, 14, 15 minutes at a time.

So it is yeah, just pretty amazing. . Yeah. And Nathan seems like a super talented kid too. Yeah. Very much he almost, I think he, he actually beat Lenny across the channel in the mole race. The first time he came over here and just was able to pump upwind and pass him. Sorry.

So sorry. Did you go to that event? Actually? I did that race too. Myself. Yeah. I saw them flying by me. I was on the stand paddle really? Oh, must amazing. Went was twice as twice actually, or just actually demo demoralize  I was watching that. I was watching that, that event from here in South Africa because they had all the GPS markers on all the riders.

And then as the foils guys started right at the end and it was nervewracking. And it's three o'clock in the morning here and I'm trying to be quiet, watching this race and I'm at my parents' house the next day I'm flying out to Canada and, I'm chewing my nails what's going on.

And then yeah to watch those little blips on that map, travel between all the riders and just blast through, it was certainly an amazing highlight. It was yeah. Phenomenal. Awesome. Yeah. Yeah. That was amazing. But anyways, let's get into the whole. Relationship with signature foils and the foil design and all that.

I have lots of questions about that, but let's start your just your background, like what, like, how did you grow up? How did you into water sports? How did you into foiling and foil design? And so as in

Born in Johnsburg I really enjoyed I went to a technical school. I really enjoyed engineering. got my first job at engineering company doing fluid dynamics, doing hydraulics doing press design which I really enjoyed. I enjoyed the whole process of designing something, drawing something, and then going down to the workshop and actually seeing it being manufactured and being made, and then being installed on site and actually being utilized.

I've got a real kick out of that. It's something that that I really enjoyed. So at a young age I moved over to England and I was staying in England, but then I'd come back to say every year and. I think it was back in 2002, somewhere around there, I was in Cape town and I bought these two flexi four kites that they stack together and then you're flying them.

And I, the part of these kites was really awesome. And I sat there on the beach and I see this guy come over the road and he's got a helmet on and he's got this board on his one arm and this package on his other arm and he comes to the beach and he rolls this thing out. And it's just this massive long.

don't know what it was, and he starts pumping it up and he had this kite and I was like, whoa, I'd seen it on TV, but you actually have someone doing it right hand in front of me. And he was the only one on what we call kite beach in, in Cape town. And when I saw that, I was like, I've gotta do this.

So the following year I bought a kite obviously a cab black tip. I'm sure you know those guys, but I think everybody started on one of those coats and. Yeah that, that pretty much started my consulting journey, but I never got anywhere. I just mowed the lawn and did the occasional jump because I was living in, in, in England and I'd only come over for, month or two at a time.

So I never really progressed. And then in about 2015, it was 2014 somewhere on there. I moved to a little Tanya in Africa called ner and I had a whole bunch of mates who were into surfing and yeah, initially I started up again, started kit surfing and started progressing a little bit better.

And that's when I saw the, a video on, I think it was on YouTube or of, I, oh, we gotta try this looks cool. It looks difficult, actually looks impossible. I was with the, and it was like, gonna, if you try it. So I had a workshop doing CNC. I did a cutting service and so I just knocked up some molds and made this foil and we went beyond the boat and this meter long mot and this thing, picking it up out of the water, just this totally surreal, crazy feeling.

I still remember it like as just yesterday, it was. So your first foils, you actually C seeded the mold and you laid up the foils inside a mold, like right from the start. The first, all my friend wings have always been in, in The very first mask that I made was just wrap ground a wood core.

But from there everything was done, from CT molds, it's just so much easier than having to sit and sand apart afterwards. So when you were in England, you studied engineering in England or what were you doing in England? No I, I moved to England. I moved to England. I was 23 somewhere around there.

And what made you decide to leave South Africa and go to England? What happened was that they made it possible to get it a two year work visa. So you could go over to England and you could travel around and, go and check the place out. And I went I was only planning to go for a year and I came back to South Africa and all my friends were still doing the same thing.

Everyone's still getting to the same place. Nothing had changed. And I was like I've only got a year left on my visa and I'm looking have this opportunity again. So I'm and yeah. Someone and I staying there for 10 years. Did you in England been England? All over , but I was staying in London for a couple years and then I moved north to, to Peter.

I was in Luton for a short amount of time then up to Peterborough for eight years. Okay. So you never did, you did, like you said, I guess in school, you enjoyed engineering and so on, but did you have a formal education in, in like aeronautical engineering or foil design or ring design or anything like that?

Or just it's all self taught more or less? Yeah. On the aortic side. Yes. I took go to college but I didn't do aortics or hybrid dynamics that, that all came much later on from radio control, the aircraft

 Yeah. Okay. Yeah, came to while that interviewed him and he has like a really good understanding of the whole engineering side of the foils as well. But he, and he, I guess he just taught himself and how to use the programs and all that kinda, stuff's pretty impressive. And he has like a background in, in glider airplanes and, or, model airplanes and so on.

But anyways, yeah, that's interesting. I'm just cur curious, like how you figured all those things out, I guess just by, by trial there. A lot of it, I guess so, yeah, there is no engineering class for hydrofoils really, it's, we very niche at the moment. Yeah. I think maybe in the future they'll do something, but the principles beyond a hydrofoil and a small aircraft is very much the same.

The end result is very different, but the principles of flight are very much the it's

design just basics of

is I guess the big thing is the, that water is much more dense than air, obviously. So it's that, and. Fluid dynamics are different probably too, but yeah,

South Africa to,

from there, I made this first foil and realized that it was way too small. It was only about a, I think it was about a 600 square centimeter. So you needed like 20 kilometers an hour, whatever it was, plus just for the foil to engage that you could lift up. So the wipe parts were classic.

Every session you, you had come out with this, whiplash. Continued designing different ones and trying different ideas. And eventually I started getting this pile of all these prototype foils, stuck in the corner of the workshop and, I didn't wanna go and just throw them in the bin.

It's just, it's, the amount of time that you put into them and the cost of the material. So I thought let sell them. So I put them on on our local second for website gum and. From doing that, I had one guy buy one and then his friend phoned him and it's listen, you made a foil for my friend.

Can you make me one? And slowly but surely I, I just started making all these foils and just one after the next and just, I just snowballed. But that was all kite foils. And then my wife she's from Canada. She wanted to move to Canada. So we started the process of of getting my visa to move to Canada.

And we left doing NASN at the time. So we moved to Jeffrey's bay. When I was here, I was like I've gotta do something while I'm waiting for my visa. I wasn't expecting it to be a, you a couple of months kind of thing. And in the end it took just over a year. So while I was here, Jeffrey's a good mate to mine.

He he saw one of my fores in the back of my truck. And he is what is that? I was like to kit for him. So he is like, cause he's a surfer. So I think it was probably a week later, he phone me up and he goes, listen, can you make one of these things for surfing? I was like, yeah, I can't see why not.

Let's try it. Back to the CNC at that time I sold my business. I didn't have access to a CNC, I to go to another mate mines place to U CNC. So I made up this this four of the surf world and it's actually Gumby. He were actually on the way to the beach and this thing was busy curing.

That's how excited we were to, to get in the water. So anyway, he jumped in the water and he started pedaling out. And a few minutes later, a couple of his mates picked up and just they don't know that there's a fo at the bottom of his board, he's just laying in the water and he, and the wave comes and he paddles.

So this wave and he stands up in this fo picks up out of the water. The guys are riding work blocks. The guys running were like screaming their heads. So I could hear them from the beach, this cause it just unheard of it just unseen. He was, he is literally the first guy, probably in South Africa.

I dunno. But one of them definitely the first guy in, the Cape that had been on a surf for, so that, that pretty much started the journey of surf oils. And from there I had to Because I didn't have access to a CNC machine anymore. I had to machine up steel molds. So I went into an engineering shop and I had, that is when I came out with the vortex 1 75, which later on came to be a very popular foil.

Okay. It is about around that time that I spoke to Ivan from signature and we started chanting and was like can we collaborate on this foil? And, can he use the foil design? And I was like, yeah, for sure. And at that time, foiling was still. Pretty much for surfing was pretty much in its infancy and I'd never ridden anyone else's foil before, so I didn't really know what foils were supposed to feel like, I've only ridden my own designs, my own feel, and I'd never ridden anyone else's foil, so I wasn't too sure.

What is this supposed to feel like? But I just aimed for having as even foot pressure as possible on the front and back of the foil and yeah, that's, that was pretty much the design that us on the map, if I can put it that way. So signature foils it, they approached you because they heard that you're making good foils and then basically you started making designs for them.

Yeah. So how did that relationship work and then how did you start your own brand? While you're also cause it's a little bit confusing cuz basically their foils are exactly the same as yours or are they different? No. Only our only, only when we first started. Oh, okay. So the vortex they called it the PTH.

And then ours, the hyper they called it Theros  but they have got their own design end out cause obviously we totally independent now. Okay. And then I guess your newest foil is the vortex, right? No, the Viper. Oh the, the Viper. Yeah. Yeah. And then, so the Viper is from what I understand a little bit of a blend of between it's like a little bit of a blend between the best aspects from both the vortex and the hyper, that's right. So our vortex is our low aspect foil which is very popular in, in, in the early stages. And everyone's pretty much transitioned over to medium aspect or high aspect foils, just cause of the efficiency. The efficiency's so much higher on, on a narrow wing. So what everybody wanted was a foil that, that, that surfed like a vortex, but pumped like a hyper.

So then did a collaboration with Adam Bennetts and this is what we made was the Viper. OK. Yeah. Okay. So in, in the early days, yeah, you had the collaboration with signature fo, but, and you still designed their foils, right? No, they've got someone else who's doing their designing now.

I see. Okay. And then what made you decide to start uni foil? Or how did that get started? It just from sending the foils out of my workshop it just snowballed and, eventually it's you gotta came up with a name brand. I was like, oh, that is a lot harder than you think , it's not easy to come up with a name brand.

I'll tell you what. Yeah. And, there's so many different names of what do you call your product? What are you call your brand? And in the beginning I actually had names of various fishes which I called the foils. And, but I still didn't have a brand name.

And one day I was just thinking about it. And I just thought, uni being one being like a uni cycle and I thought uni foil and I was like, that's it? That is what I'm gonna call this brand uni foil it relates to being number one and it relates to being, a single file that you're writing.

And that's pretty much how I came up with the name of uni. Yeah, like a unicorn  that's still coming  okay. And yeah, and Adam Bennetts is an amazing foiler yeah, like he phenomenal so a lot of I guess having good team writers like that I'm sure is very helpful. When in designing the foils. Yeah, no, he's got crazy talent. I think it's absolutely imperative that you have a team writer who has the ability to give you feedback that you can work on. Yeah. Very important. Okay. So yeah, I remember to came over to Oahu for this event that we had a few years ago that it was called hundred wave event and he had a team and the team had to catch a hundred waves and he had one of those signature Albatros foils, and they had a whole team of signature team.

And, but came to wild was just like pu pumping around in circles, like catching one way after the other, just catch, like that's the first time I really saw someone just pumping like that. He does, he makes it look easy, but yeah, so talk explain to me how why are high aspect foils so efficient?

What makes them more efficient in medium aspects and what, what are the what are the good and the bad? What's the good and the bad of the high aspect? Like what, yeah. So just kind talk a little bit about that know, and then also why you go, why you went back to a medium, more medium aspect versus a very high aspect

way is a wing that has a very short cord line is always going to have less drag than a wing with a long cord line. Cause it's the amount of time that the water takes to travel over the cord. That's what gives you your drag. So if you can reduce that down you have less drag.

So the highest  was designed to be as efficient as possible. It was purely designed for straight line to get from a, to B as efficiently as possible. So when I started designing that Ivan gave me GPS records just showing the average speed that Nathan was riding at to, I think it was 20.

One or 23 kilometers an hour, somewhere out there. So I tried to optimize the efficiency at that speed to get as little drag as possible. So high aspect fours is all about efficiency. The disadvantage of high aspect fours is they do tend to not turn as well. Being such a wide w span they're not really intended to be written in the surface as much.

That is my theory back then. And then these high aspect foils reached away and there was some riders that started using them in the surf. And I was like, no, you're not supposed to do that, that they're not made for that, but the guys were ripping on them. And I was like, wow, that's amazing, that they got the ability to turn that foil the sharp as what they could, but that's the real disadvantage is if you're an average to get a higher expert to really turn it, doesn't want to, it tends to Trapp pretty much on rails.

That's why we came up with the mid aspect, foils mid aspect, foils for surf. Foing is just way better. These vis, when I get out on a session I actually just feel like I'm adding Bens, when you're doing these turns, cause you just, what I found with the high aspect stuff was you went along with the, for the right it'll going to the left and it's okay, we're going to the left and you pretty much follow the four where it wants to go.

And it's a bit of a wild beast and changing over to the right. But you just think turn left and you do this nice, turn to the left. They just turn incredibly well, fair enough. The efficiency isn't as high as the hypers, but it's not very far behind in, in terms of pumping.

So how did you achieve that and sorry to interrupt you, but how did you achieve the that turning the more turn in the Viper versus the versus the hyper just automatically by getting to a low it's gonna turn better that immediately it's gonna allow to turn better. Then the hyper profile is actually quite a slow profile.

It's not a very fast foil. It was only made to cruise at, like I said, 22, 25 K an hour. And it, it does a very easy lifting for and the VI though has got a completely different profile. It's quite a bit faster than the hyper profile, but the front cur of the wing also helps it to turn.

But of twist in the ring also helps it to turn. So there's me, there's different things that you can do to the foil to change its characteristics. So it, little bit of curve in, in the curvature of the foil itself. Yeah. So what happens is on aircraft, you've got DRI where the wings are like this.

So when you're flying with it with an aircraft that has DRI, when the wings start to tilt over to the side, you have less lift on the w that is tilted. So then automatically it selfs. So now on the hydrofoil, that's the opposite. You actually put a curve into the ring like this. So when you turn over to the side, you lose the lift on the side, that is got the main lift.

So automatically you're making the fourth unstable, so you're making it so that it turns a lot easier by adding in that little bit of a curve. Then I guess the downside of adding curve is that it makes it a little bit less efficient, cause the tips are not creating as much lift, right? Yeah.

Yes. Or the surface area. Yes. Your actual area versus your projected area is not close, between the two, so then you lose efficiency, right? Yeah. Last week I talked to AIAN from access foils and he said to him, like the surface area of the wing of the foil is not as important as the wing span and the aspect ratio and things like that.

Like he said that's why they use the wingspan as a measurement rather than the surface area. But your foils, you measure the surfaces square inches. Is that the number on the foil surface inches? And then is that the projected surface area or the it's actual, the actual surface it's actual, actual, actual surface area.

Yeah. Okay. So how would you say high aspect foil, it seems like it creates a lot more lift at the same surface area, right? If it has a wider wing span, but a smaller surface area, it seems like it creates a lot more lift. Is that correct? You say it does generate a bit more lift.

It's more efficient. So the lift data generates it generates it with a lot more efficiency. Basically, so it's basically your surface area dictates what amount of force your foil can pick up, not your span, not your cord. They do two degree, but the main thing is the surface area of the foil.

So that's why we measure our foils in surface area. In hydraulics, the formulas, ethical speed times a, pressure times your area, it's got nothing to do with span or anything. And it's the same with the foil. When you're designing a foil and you're design a foil to lift a certain weight, you go on the surface area times the coefficient of lift, not the span.

If we had to measure our foils with span our low expect foil has the same span as like for example a VI in 90 has the same span as a vortex one 50. If I had to say that the foils measured on the span, it would be very confusing to go through the different ranges or different designs of foils.

Based on those numbers when somebody phones me up and says, what size foil do I need? The first thing I'll ask is what is your weight? Because your weight dictates what size foil you're gonna riding at whatever speed not the span of the foil. That makes sense.

But I guess, because like you said, because the high aspect flow are more efficient. They basically create less drag. So you basically create, you can go faster and then that creates more lift because you're going faster. Is that basically why it feels like a smaller high, it just seems like a smaller, high aspect flow, smaller surface area, high aspect flow creates more lift than a bigger low aspect foil to me, but I guess it's because of the speed yeah.

That you're traveling at higher speeds. Yeah. So a high aspect foil will have a much wider speed range. A low aspect foil tends to ride in a much narrower speed range. And then it blows out, whereas a high aspect foil can ride slower and it can ride faster. So your speed range on a high aspect foil.

The speed window is definitely bigger. Yeah. Okay. You like, people used to say, like for beginners, it's better to use a low aspect foil cause it's more predictable and easier to use versus high aspect foil. Would you say that still applies or would you yep. Yes. I wouldn't necessarily even go to a low aspect foil, just a medium aspect, foil to learn to foil on, on a high aspect.

Foil is you're going to make the journey very painful. It's not recommended. There's tons of guys that have done it. Now I'm talking about surf oiling for ring foiling different Keer fish for surf oiling to learn to surf oil on a high aspect foil. Definitely don't recommend it.

It's and also it depends on your skill levels and your abilities and stuff. But generally I would recommend to, to learn to surf for on a high aspect for it, it just makes it so much harder, so much more difficult. With w foiling it's very different because you've got the third or, or something to hold onto.

So your stability is, you are way more stable with a wing in your hands or kiting your hands than, without, so for w foiling, that's fine. You can start to learn on a high aspect quite easily. Okay. So would you say that winging is the one of the easiest ways to learn how to foil or what, like you said, behind a boat?

Yeah, I guess behind a boat is probably one of the easiest ways, but without having a boat, if you, yourself, what would you say is the easiest way to get into foil? Oh, without a doubt ring foing is it's way easier than without a doubt ring foing is so much easier. And it's like I say, if you have the correct gear, you can be foing in three, four sessions, easily.

Okay. It depends on age abilities conditions. But you can be easily foiling, in three, four sessions, I've got a bunch of mates that have learned to w for who already are foiling, however, but to, to learn to winful, you know, they're riding toe side on their first nation. But as I say, if it is possible and you can go out behind a boat first just to get that initial feeling of the foil, picking up outta the water.

It's very weird that, when you first do it, and if you're learning with just a a wing as a power source it's a bit of a challenge, but it's certainly a lot easier than trying to learn with the kite that's. Yeah. That's next level. Yeah, totally agree on that. I've, I recently started using a more high effect of foiling.

And one thing I noticed is that when you hit some turbulence in the water, like there's foam in the water or something from a wave, it seems like they just drop right away versus a lower as yeah. Lower aspect. Foil will be less sensitive to turbulence. So why is that?

Why are they more sensitive to the turbulent water? Dunno how to say I just presume, because it's the amount of water on, on the surface area of the bottom of the foil just cause it's air. Yeah, dunno.

Yeah. So you're not like, yeah, I was puzzled why that is. I guess it's just maybe cuz like you said, it has, it doesn't travel over the foil as long. So maybe, yeah, I don't, I dunno, but I thought you might have an answer for that, but no, I haven't got a clue. Yeah. Okay. But I liked your explanation of why they have less drag just basically cuz it takes the water less time to travel from the front leading edge to the trailing Android.

So it just slips to the water faster. Yeah. Also your, your Paraic GRA is also a lot lower because on a high spec foil, you'll find that you fall nine times outta 10 is, is going to be a lot thinner than a lower aspect for the lower spec. Foils tend to be quite fat and junky where high spec foils are a lot thin.

So you also goes lower drag just from your frontal drag. Yeah. And you said you're redesigning your high aspect, foils your hyper line. You're gonna come out with a new version of it soon, or? Yeah so the hypers have been, not now, like I said five years now, I think that came out 2017 and a lot of guys want to go faster.

So the hypers were made to, to cruise at 22, 23 K an hour. That's just their cruising speed. So yes, that can go a lot faster. But the hybrid twos are now going to be purely for ringing. And then we bring in out a different range for down winding. So the hybrid twos are going to be quite a bit faster.

The store speed will be a little bit higher. They're going to be aimed purely at in foil. So with foiling, you can have a higher stall speed on the foil, cause you've got that source of power. Like how much higher is the stall speed? Even for, I kind being able to kind like at the end of a jive or attack, if youre almost, you're almost stalling and then you can pump back out of it.

It's nice to be able to do that without dropping off. But but having a super efficient foil is also a really nice and then having a higher top end, but I guess it always comes at a price on the low speed as well. But when you're talking a faster profile, is it just thinner or like what how did you make it faster?

I'm just curious. It's a completely different section. So the section that was used in the, on the regional hyper, the maximum thickness was at 25%. If I remember correctly, somewhere around there and now the maximum thickness has just been moved further back. So you have a little bit less lift.

You make the foil, excuse me. So when I made the hypers, because I didn't have access to a CNC machine, I didn't have I didn't have the luxury of trying many different variations Nathan and Ivan were flying to Hawaii to do the age two NTO. And I didn't have the luxury to, try this fall and that fall and try this section.

So I had to play it safe if I can put it that, or I had to use a profile that I knew for definite would work. I didn't want to make a four that was too fast and it just too advanced that would stall, if you had a store halfway out and you couldn't get going again to be game over. So I had to come up with a four that I knew was going to work and it just gonna play it safe.

And I knew from the data at the time that he had a very good chance of a podium finish, even winning the race because of the speed of the foil. And I could calculate over the distance, what sort of time to take him, to complete the race. But that was five years ago.

Things have changed. Guys' abilities are just going through the, and so many people who are, who have got the talent and the skill to, to push the foils. Now, you've got access to stronger carbon. You've got the access to Highest, higher speed.

So it's just what the guys want, they wanna go faster and faster. So yeah, it's about time that we do a revision on the hybrids. Yeah. The technology has changed so much in just the last few years and they have had the race cuz of COVID. So it'll be interesting to see what happens.

Like they'll probably be it'll be probably a whole different ball game, by the time they hold it again next year, maybe. I guess it's not happening this summer either, but yeah, it'll be interesting to see like all the progression. And then what about the aspect ratio? Did you keep that about the same or did you make it even more high aspect or it has got a fraction higher.

They're sitting at about eight to one now, eight, just over eight, somewhere on there. So just a little bit higher on the aspect ratio. So the first we're going to be releasing the first three, which is the one 70, the one 90 and the two ten first. And then at a later stage we'll release other sizes.

And you said there, like there's different wings for winging and for down winding or are they the same gonna be the same just by size or how? We bring it out a completely different range for down winding. Oh, wow. And then what about mass? I was curious about mass links looks like at this time you only have two different sizes of mass.

Is that correct? Three, we've got 7 50, 8, 30 and nine 50. Oh, you have a nine 50. Okay. Yeah. Then if it's on the website yeah, on the website, it only had two options. When you look at the mass choosing the

eight 30, so you also have a nine 50,

that's something I think definitely for do for wing foiling. It's nice to have a little bit longer mask because the chop and stuff, you can just fly over the chop without it, without having to follow the contours of the water, basically as much, but I guess for like down winding and surfing, having a longer mask can be a disadvantage because you don't, you're not as connected to the foil.

You're more up higher. It's just that little delay that it takes turning from rail to rail on a long mot. Timing's different, everything's different. So generally the gas start on the seven 50 and if you're riding slightly bigger waves, then the eight 30 the nine 50 is it's not as popular.

I use a nine 50, if I'm out in open ocean like you said, you don't have to hunt all the time, skimming over the cross. That's just, on the long, last it's awesome. You just blast over the top . But generally in, in the actual waves themselves I won't use a nine 50.

I just, I don't like the delay from turning from rail to rail. I prefer the eight 30 it's yeah, way better. Okay. Interesting. And then yeah, so what about mass stiffness or like the whole stiffness? What are your, what's your take on the importance of stiffness and are, is that, would you say it's very important and like what are you trying to accomplish with stiffness or versus flex and stuff like that?

That's a lot of people asking that question. You have to follow the trend. So people want stiffer Mo you've got a supply stiffer. So if that's the trend and that's what people want, then that's what you have to supply. I personally don't, on the winful our MOS are, for me personally are, are more than stuff enough.

We have actually. We working on an extra stiff mask at the moment. I've just written the first two prototypes and yeah they extremely stiff. If they're totally necessary again it's up to each individual or what they want if you want a very stiff ma yes. So for me, I like the efficiency of a thin our standard ma are 12 millimeters thick at the base.

So once you've written a mast with that efficiency in that speed, to go to really thick it's, that's what we love about is the efficiency. So you chopping off efficiency. So if you still have a, that the stiffness that you require, then so much better 20 writing, a 20 millimeter thick mot if however, you are required to to need such a stiff ma for pumping or for whatever it is, then, that's what you need to get.

So we've also got a, an extra stiff mot it'll be available soon. It's not on the website yet. We're just finalizing the layout and the stiffness. Yeah. And then I've, I've noticed too that your like basically your front wing and your fuselage is all one piece. And I guess that's also to take out any kind of play or flex between the front wing and the fuselage rate.

So this is something that I learned right at the beginning of making foils, cause my FOS used to be separate. The fuselage of the front ring used to be separate and I quickly realized that this is a weakness on the foil just because of the twist. So you'll see, there are no manufacturers that make or none that I can think of that make a separate carbon fiber fuselage.

And the reason for this is because of the manufacturing process of having a two, five mold. Cause when you close the mold, you have a join line. And if your material doesn't cross that join line carbon is its weakest in sheer. And that fus just splits open the moment you apply a force on it.

So right in the beginning I realized this, that Having these big wings on, on, on the, on a separate fuselage is not gonna work. That's why you'll see when guys have got separate fuselages nine times out of the 10, they might have made out of aluminum. So the first generations of the uniforms the fuselage in the front w were all just one piece, but the shipping and the traveling was just a nightmare.

It was just very difficult to travel with it. And that's why we then put a split in the fuselage. But a one piece front wing and fuselage is far superior to having a connection there. And you'll see quite a few manufacturers that have changed over to this design purely for that, because it is superior in stiffness, right?

The moment you have it there you drawing Allows for movement. So does, can you still adjust the angle between the front wing and the tail wing, or is there like somewhere you can trim it imperative, absolutely imperative that you are able to tune the foil to your liking. Yeah that's that's a given you have to be able to tune your foil to, to your liking.

I've had two riders come from a to station and the one rider is the other one. Oh, if just had a little bit more front foot pressure and the guy's no, you mean a little more back foot pressure. And the guy's no, a little bit more front foot pressure. And they've just rid the exact same foil and they've got two different fields, so if you want that little more front foot pressure and you can't adjust that angle, what do you do? So if you have different weights, if one person raises 80 kilos and another one raises 90 kilos, you're gonna want to have a different feel fair enough. It takes years of experience to, to actually help, to feel the difference and to start to fine tune, as to what you actually like and what works well with your, what do you call it, ergonomics that that you like in, your style of writing.

But there's definitely a shift in, in fo foyers going from backward press for is going from back foot pressure to front foot pressure. A lot of guys start falling and. They all write back foot pressure and slowly but surely they, that they're transitioning over to front foot pressure cause they see the advantages of it.

Okay. So talk a little bit about the construction process and how involved are you in it? And so are your foils?

Yeah, so we've had a absolute nightmare with manufacturing just from being able to produce the volumes that we need and the one manufacturer that we had didn't follow the layer requirements, that are stipulated to the factory and they applied what they've been doing for another customer.

And I said, these wings are not gonna work. If you don't do the layout exactly the way I'll tell you to do them. And we had a batch of foils flail. So that was extremely frustrating. And to get them to follow instruction was also frustrating. So in the end we actually had to find a different manufacturer who would follow instructions, implicitly exactly the way I wanted them to, to.

To lay these SWS up. And when we had the first Vipers come off the from this factory I said up on in Australia, cut the thing. And he is what? And I said, got it. So they cut the foil up into, I think, seven or eight different pieces. And we just reverse engineered it. Cause when you burn carbon you burn the epoxy off and you left is just the carbon and you can see exactly how it's been laid up.

And I just wanted to be sure that they followed instruction on the way that must be laid up. And they literally followed every single layer and the Vipers are absolutely bomb proof. You can go crazy on them. They're so strong. So yeah very happy with our current manufacturer. And just all the details, all the small little details they, that they're falling to thet.

So our current manufacturer is the best that we've had and the quality of the product shows it to hear that. Yeah, the fitment is beautiful. The finish is beautiful. The strength is beautiful. The the flex, everything on it is just 12 cars. I'm very happy with our current manufacturer.

So I'm assuming, because to make a large volume production you have to basically go to big factory in Asia probably. So how has COVID affected that? I I guess it's really hard because you can't really travel to the factory and see what they're doing, so you kinda have to wait to get it and cut it open and see if they actually did what you asked.

Yeah. That's that's tough. We kinda had a lot of issues with our standup paddle board production and stuff too during COVID. So actually let's talk about COVID a little bit, like, how was that in South Africa? It was pretty bad too for a while, right? Yeah. Yeah. They shut the country down for quite a while and then pretty much standard protocol throughout the world, I think.

And then slowly we started reopening up with a lot of restrictions. It was difficult. Obviously I had to, I stopped R and D here. It does. Yeah, very difficult for Unifor because we had just started on the vis we'd moved factory and it put huge delays in, in our manufacturing.

So yeah, we literally went down to an absolute crawl with being able to supply a product. Cause we had nothing that's so frustrating. Cause especially during the pandemic, so everybody wanted to get in the had free time. Yeah. Everybody wanted to buy stuff, but was so hard to get

challenging very much. So would you say that like for UN what are some of the biggest challenges for you right now that

what's keeping you at? Again it's one of those things I've I've been able to keep ahead as to The call for product for, which ways is the market going and to be on top of that and to listen to what people want. That is very important. For example like you're bringing up stiff masks, if people want stiff stiffer MOS, then you need to build to supply that that's, that alone is a challenge because, you need to be able to read the market and read what's required.

Yeah. The thing is that sometimes people don't realize is that everything's a compromise, like you said if you want stiffer, you can make it thicker. You can make it heavier. But then is that gonna be better? Depends on the person. If, a heavier person with a big wingspan foil for them, it might make a big difference having an extra stiff mass versus, a lighter rider with a smaller foil that's surf oiling.

Exactly. They might prefer really thin mass and they don't mind a little bit of flex. So it really really depends on the use case and stuff like that. And you always give up, you give up one thing and you get another thing. But yeah, there's no, no free lunch in designing things. For me, I say pick two fast, cheap or stable which two do you want? Because as you say, it's all about compromise. If you take from here, you've gotta give there, if you give there, you've gotta take here. So it's all about compromise. And that, it's also a bit frustrating because you can't make each foil for each specific rider.

So you can have a a guy that raises 200 pounds that is riding a Viper 90 on a towing, but you can also have a person that raises 120 pounds, the exact same foil and they can do, but it would be nice to have one where the lighter rider rides, a lighter foil, it's impossible to manufacture like that.

It's. Yeah. Yeah. And you wanna able to use the same mass on your big foils as you would on a small to, in foil that you don't wanna switch? Ideally yeah, you would use a, you would use a thinner mass for the higher speeds, but yeah, but it's not really realistic that to buy different. Yeah.

Yeah. Especially the carbon mass are so expensive we got into for build construction for a while too. And we had so many problems. I just give up on it cause I just leave it to guys like you, that specialize in it. But one thing that I found really interested when interesting, when we were laying up mass and testing them was like, if you have the unit directional fiber, like how do you put the layers together?

Cause if you put them all straight, then you get a very, that side to side, but then it has the torsional twist, then if you put them angles and you get like torsional stiffness, but not not so much side, side bending stiffness. And then I started reading up on it and I guess there's like all kinds of for jet fighters and stuff that get, make carbon wings.

And it's it's pretty complicated technology, but yeah do you, I guess it's probably your secret sauce, but you wanna talk a little bit about that? How you do the layups and stuff. Nothing makes up for experience. Experience is the key. My, my very first carbon MOS that I made outta the mold was a 100% flop  because the first MOS that I made was just over a wood core.

And it was, it just perfect, to spine. And the first malt that I made, I just thought, if I go a little bit thick on the carbon this is gonna be incredibly I'm uh, seven years ago is this seven, seven years ago. And I made this MOS and it's an absolute noodle. It's just terrible, and I was like, you know what, what's going on?

What did I miss? And, just did a little bit of research and little bit of reading on it. And I was like, I just missed the absolute basics of it. And when you have a ma that is constant cord versus a ma that is tapered your tape is far superior to a constant cord.

And so quickly calm the CNC cut tape type it ma and yeah, night and day difference. But for actual layups schedules, you. You just have to test, you have to lay up Dele tests. And yes. See what sort of stiffness you, you require from that. So why? Yeah. So why is a tapered mass better? I guess obviously the forces close to the board is, are the highest right, where the master attaches to the board, but why is that? And why is it more efficient? Why does it taper master? It's just the mechanics of it. It's just the mechanics of how it works. You driving your two faces in the triangle it's and the thickness because you, those two layers are trying to share each other.

So when you push those two layers, apart from each other, you your strength goes up exponentially. So if you can make the base of the MOS thicker and then tape it down, because you only have probably what a third of the, in the water most of the time. So if you can have just the part of the, that's exposed to the water as thin as possible, you have, you definitely have to a cord.

And then, but doesn't, then don't, doesn't it cause more like torsional flex and stuff at the end of it, if it gets the, or do more torsional flex again it's what is acceptable and what are you chasing? What you, what is, what are you trying achieve with this? If you want a,

then nothing makes up for the thickness of the cord. If thicker cord, it's always you if, if go go to a thicker cord, it's always going to be superior then going to a higher you can get away with a low

on a very thick cord. Cause that distance is imperative. It's what makes it so much strong. Okay thanks for this deep dive into flow design. Do you wanna talk a little bit about other equipment and I know you make wings as well, so what are you trying to optimize for in wing design and like what's your goal?

So we onto our third generation wing now. Again, it's also it's also been a long learning curve. I don't design the rings myself. We have a manufac a designer who designs for the manufacturer. But we just wanted a ring that was user friendly. So something that had a lot of low end grant, because I think that's where a lot of guys struggle is the initial takeoff on the wing.

So to have low end grant was definitely high on, on the list and then just very user friendly. We didn't want anything that tucked or dived that, that is actually the first generation that's shown there. So we actually two generations down from that. Those are old pictures. Oh, okay.

We've just released our new wing. That's called the pin. It's on the latest pull magazine. You'll see. There's the address in the latest falling magazine. Okay. That would be released probably in the next four weeks, six weeks kinda thing. So how does, how is it different from your, from these older designs?

Everything from the actual outline of the wing to the materials used now using triple rip stop in the canopy and just refined many things like to me, what I didn't like on the initial wings was the amount of handles. I don't like a wing with lots of handles, that you gotta move your hand from handle to handle.

So that was one of the first things that we changed. So the new wing has only got three handles which makes a huge difference that in inability that you can just move your hand slightly up and down the handle and, to keep where wherever you wanna hold the and just the there's you can see on that there's only three handles,

which picture? Sorry. A little bit lower down. Just if you scroll

this one here, little bit more, little bit more, little more. There we go. Oh, this one here one. Yeah, actually that's just the second generation. You just close that and you look at the one just above where you jumping in the air. Yes. That you'll see. There's only three handles on that ring.

Correct. So that is our current. And then you it's also with still without windows though. So the five meter and the six meter has windows the two, three and four doesn't have a window.  Just because the bigger sizes tend to be that little bit bulkier and, to move a big ring out the way.

So we decided to put windows on, on the bigger sizes. OK. OK. And then what do you design boards as well or not? Not at this time. We are in the process of doing our boards. Again, the website will be updated very soon. We're working on a new, completely new redesign of our whole product list.

So over the next, probably three, three months, you'll see that there's going to be a huge change in products available on the website. Nice. Yeah. Glen Glen is one of your team writers or distributors here on the north shore too. And I interviewed her as well, and she's pretty amazing.

She was like wing fulling, pregnant at overdue already, like she was already supposed to be in the hospital giving a birth, but she was still winging  in big waves. But anyways, she's amazing. And yeah and she seems to really like the foils and she does, she's amazing on the foil, so that, and Ted as well.

So I know there's some good writers here using them. Yeah. Yeah. So what's the what's the foiling scene like in South Africa? What, I guess it, it in where you live it's a crowded there. Isn't a, like a Jeffrey bays a crowded surf spot. So it's not easy to foil there.

So what do you do for foiling? Like where do you go? Where is that? Where the happening places and what's going on. So our conditions don't favor foiling that much here in Jeffreys by itself. The if you go down to, to lower point with the waves got a little bit less energy, you can foil there, however you are going to upset a lot of the locals.

So we don't recommend it. You in know, foiling and surfing, it's two different things. And I think safety is very important. If you are going to foil there, you need to be a competent foiler and you need to know what you're doing, and you need to steer clear of the service cause you're just gonna upset them.

So I don't recommend foiling, at the foing at the surfing spots here, we have got other places that you can go foing. We mainly tow foil, so we've got the luxury of being able to choose from a variety of circuited spots where it's just, two guys and that's it. But with wing foiling, we have got a southwesterly wind that blows here which blows from the town next door St.

France to Jeffrey bay. It's about 10 kilometers. And I've done it once and it's awesome. So I'm really looking forward to the summer to, to a lot more that's pretty much

focusing this, doing this start winding, so be very excited. And is that with wings? Oh, sorry. Is it with wings or with paddles? No. With wings. Wings, definitely with wings. Yeah. Yeah. Just, I just find it so much safely, something goes wrong. With the w it's just so much easier, I think later on our progress to, to, just being paddle only or prone only, but at the moment, definitely with wings yeah the safety aspect is just so much higher with the wing.

If something happens, the wind dies, whatever happens. Yeah. That, that's true. It's just much easier with the wing cuz you're always gonna be able to get back up on foil again if it's windy enough. But but I've also heard horror stories of people like losing their wings or like the leash ripping and the wings go flying away.

You're like way outside on a small wing board and then you have to paddle in, so yeah. Yeah. I dunno if you've ever, if you've ever lost a foil. I've never not a leash. The actually I've broken leashes before on, on the board, but usually in, in the waves. And then, usually the board ends up in the channel somewhere and you can get it, but the wing like actually lost the wing one time and it just ended up, like from diamond, it ended up in Waikiki and somebody got it.

And then I got it back, like weeks later, but I, somebody heard that I lost it, but yeah, it's a good idea to put your name and phone number on your wing.  yeah. If your lease breaks, if your lease breaks on a foil board and you added sea, there's no way you're catching that board. It's got, yeah, it's strong takes off and it just, it just goes on its own.

Safety is extremely important. We don't any incidences you knowing, so always go out in group. We still, in early days, we, we will out with a backup jet ski or a backup boat just in case something happens. You rip your wing, whatever it is I wanted to be a pleasant experience.

Yeah. And then also always go out with other people. Like the buddy system is always a good idea and don't wanna do stuff by yourself and get in trouble. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's one of the things that's putting a lot of us off is a lot of us come from a kiting background and because our wind is offshore we never cut in the offshore wind because it's just too dangerous.

Whereas if you go wing foiling you eliminate a lot of that danger just because, the dynamics of w foiling is just so much it works well even in the offshore wind not recommended for a beginner obviously, but having that mentality of coming from the kiting background it, it really is something that sit in your mind, it's I'm going offshore, wind.

So yeah. Yeah. It's just one of those hurdles that you need to get around. What I find is guys who don't have a kit kiting background, they feel nothing. They're just gonna jump in the water and there they go, because they haven't had that fear put into them from getting an offshore wind kite.

Yeah. Challenging. Interesting. Yeah. I've never I never really got that much into kiting. I was into wings, wind surfing. For many years and then, kiting camera on, I was like, ah, I like windsurfing better still, but  I tried it a few times, but I never got good at it. But then when winging came around to me that was like the freedom of not having the wing attached to the being able to, it's kind a little bit of a hybrid between kiting and windsurfing.

I, so I so wish that I started earlier with this wing ringing because I still stuck with a kite and I only started last year with it. And I so wish that I started early on because when it actually came out, I bought a wing of just too small and it just frustration. It just so frustrating.

And then last year I got a couple six meters and total game changer for me, having a wing that's the correct size. And yeah, I wish I started two years ago with it because it, like you say, it gives you that freedom and you can go anywhere you like. And what really appeals to me is to be able to, to de power the wing, on, on a kite, you can't do that when you're on the wave, you've got such a narrow section that you can ride in.

If you go a little bit too far to the left in the kite, toss out the sky, if you go forward to onto to the right, then you are, you're pulling against the kites. So you've got such a narrow little spectrum that you need to ride in, kite fo, whereas w foing. Go for it. You go where you want a wave power up again, and you're going, yeah.

With the K2, you can't like totally de power it because then it drops out the sky. You always gotta pull in the lines. So with the wing, you can really totally just de power it. And it's pretty much not there anymore almost. And it's you can, it's to toll and surfing without needing a jet ski, really you can to yourself into waves basically, which is pretty cool.

Not exactly if it's strong offshore winds, it does catch quite a bit of wing and wind. And it's hard. It'd be nice to not have it on the wave. But I guess there's some guys like experimenting with dropping the, like getting on the waves and dropping the weight or something and then coming back I've some of those videos, the guy just tosses the ring and there you guys like, yeah.

I'd like to be able to do that. Yeah.  yeah. That's interesting. But anyway, so I guess in South Africa, the biggest win wing foil scene is probably in Cape town then, that's cause there's wind and there's like a wind scene and everything. So yes. Is that where you like where would you say, do you sell the most foils is it in, in South Africa or where, which market is the most.

Lucrative for your most successful? I only deal with south African distribution, so I only sell in, in, in South Africa. But yeah, Cape town definitely is by far the fastest growing and the biggest scene seen um, it just works there, they you've got wind all the time in the summer season.

So yeah, it just works really well. Yeah. And a lot of Europeans come when, cause it's when it's winter in Europe, it's summer and Cape town and they go down there to enjoy the wind. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. I was in Cape town quite a few years ago and I hadn't been to, to dolphin beach in, in years and pitching up there and you see literally, 50, 60, 70, 80 kites, it's crazy.

It's yeah. Just hundreds of, yeah. Yeah. And I guess that's not the case where you are and yeah. So I guess you're, it's more, it's actually kind more rare to see foil people foiling there and Jeffrey, or not as many to go ago, just but is, are there ways that are like GE, like when you do go to foiling, are there ways that you can ride super long ride, get super long rides on the foil like that?

Like the, those kind of secret spots you're talking about, or, yeah, we've got like our local spot where when the swell comes through, we just go through and tow there. But there are some places where you can get really long rides yeah for tow falling. It's completely different.

Because of the, like I said, you've got the accessibility to choose you want to go. We don't really have crazy big waves or anything here. There's a couple guys in Cape town that ride dungeon, which is a massive wave. It's an absolute monster wave. Not for me though.

That's yeah, it's a bit crazy. Here on the north shore, a lot of times when there's big waves on when you're wing foing you can catch the wave. From two miles out and ride it for like almost a mile before you get to where the surfers can catch it, so we got like this huge playground and then we just kick out and then the guy, the surfers get like the last little bit right before the wave hits the beach.

But so it's pretty cool. It just opens it way up to be able to get, the foils are so efficient that you can, you don't need a steep wave. You just need a kind of, a little bit of a wall or that's something you can ride. I think as the sport progresses I think you'll have a lot more people seeing exactly that, that, that's why surfing never really appealed to me because the amount of time that you're on the wave.

The amount of time that you had to dedicate to the sport. I just didn't have that, that luxury of that time and to go for a two hour serve session and catch 3, 4, 5 waves, of 20, 30 seconds each, that, that didn't really appeal to me at where's cutting, you're on the board all the time.

You have a two hour session you're on the board for two hours. And I think this is when more surface see, sees an appeal of foiling where you, like you say, you can go out crazy far and you can ride for so much longer. I really think that we, in the infancy of wing foiling it's just going to grow exponentially.

Yeah. Do you think it's gonna get crowded or where people are gonna be not telling other people where they're going, because they don't want more peoples to show up or something like that.  I think it's still a long way from that because there are so many spots, it's the same as with surf oiling, guys are now looking at areas that you'd never considered to go and surf because the conditions don't work.

So I think it's gonna be the same as wind foing. As, as long as you've got a decent wind a steady wind, then it doesn't even have to be that steady, but consistent. Yeah you can go jump in the wood and have a blast of that. Yeah. One of the beauty, beautiful things about wing falling is that you can really do it anywhere.

You don't need waves, really. You don't, you just need water and wind, so you, and you don't need like a big beach where you can launch a kite or whatever, you can just walk down some rocks and jump in and go wing, pretty much anywhere exactly that's, it's really opens it up to pretty much anywhere in the world really, which is pretty cool.

Yeah. Yeah. So for you, like you said, you've been waiting for about a year. You wish you've done it sooner and stuff, but would you say for learning, is it mostly practice or is it more talent or, would for your yourself, would you say that you you learn just, is it just putting in the time to get better or do you take things from other sports and its like certain things you already know and learn learn to observe and.

To me, wining foiling is no different than riding a bicycle. If you can ride a bicycle, does it require talent to ride a bicycle? Not really. It requires the time to, to climb on it. And to spend that time to, to get your muscle memory, to, to recognize, the inputs that are required to balance and windings exactly the same.

So anyone that is able, that has the time to dedicate to the sport can do it do need a measure of fitness especially, when you climb on that board and you fall off and you climb on that board and it wears you out pretty quick, so you do need a level of fitness, but if you can ride a skateboard, you can w for that's the way I see it.

If you've got the time to dedicate it, you don't need any special talents or anything like that. No. Obviously if you don't come from a boarding background, it's gonna take a little bit longer. But I think it's a, definitely not a very difficult sport to learn. I would say it's pretty much on part to, to learn to kind arguably maybe even easier because you don't have that fear of being.

Ripped through the air   so I suppose you do have the fear of falling on the foil, but mean that's. Yeah, but yeah, to, to anyone if you're looking to start wing foing the sensation is just incredible. It's you know, when you're spectator you watch it. It's a bit boring, it's it doesn't look that great, but when you're on that foil and you're flying it's yeah.

It's an incredible sensation. Yeah. It's funny. Cause pretty much everybody, including myself when they first saw winging that doesn't look that cool,  I was like, and you tried. And then I said the same thing. Yeah. You're instantly hooked on this, that, that sensation of flying over the water.

It's incredible. Just being able to do it without stopping, like when you're surfing, you always have to paddle back out and then you got another minute on the foil and then you have to spend 10 minutes to catch her next wave. But winging. Exactly. You're just like always flying back and forth and you can exactly.

It's an amazing sensation. I agree. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So tell me a little bit about your friend Gumby. He's actually the one who emailed me and told me I should interview you and stuff. But he said, he's your toing partner program. Yeah. Yeah. So I've known gum before for quite a few years.

And as I said earlier, when I said I think I at his mum in-law's place and he saw this that toe for that kit for in the back. He's a full on surfer and he saw that and I could see, something he is he's intrigued by it, but those first few sessions that got him going the was just through the roof.

It incredible. It is just so to this foil and yeah really a milestone is the beginning for fors. Yeah, just  and then, then, yeah, yeah, just through the years, he's he's pretty much been the first guy to ride my prototypes. Now we've got dedicated team riders, in, in the first early days, myself and Gumby regard to foil and whatever we're writing together learned to, to toil from Gabi.

So are when you go toiling together, are you similar weights? Do you use the same board and foil setup where you got each got. Use the same? No we use the same setup. I'm a little bit heavier than what he is. He's I think nineties or mid nineties he's taller than what I am and definitely more skillful.

He's just got a really nice flow to his foing. I've struggled. I struggled with a, to fo coming from the kit falling background, when you it's the same as ring foing when you've got something in your hands, it just makes it so much easier. You've got that stability to turn and everything.

Because I didn't serve when you don't, when I don't have that stability in my hands, it took me a while to, to get that feeling of just standing on the board and not having that extra support in your hands. So it took me a while to to get used to that. Yeah. You have to be a lot more centered to fly on it without holding something in your hand, you have to be right over the foil.

You can't be like off when you, yeah. Yeah. And on a kit ring, it's so much more forgiving. Cause if you still lose your balance, you can just pull on the ring or pull on the kite. When you're toe forwarding, there's nothing to put on. But yeah, we've had some really amazing sessions. . Yeah, I've really enjoyed the time.

Yeah. I have a friend Jeff Tang, and when I go with him, I just use whatever he's using, cause I know he's like about the same weight and same skill level more or less. So we just always share the same board and so much easier. But pretty much everyone else. I know they, each per each person has their own setup, so they have to have one on the jet ski and one in the water and then they have to switch it out and stuff like that.

It just, when you know, and then when a big wave comes and you have to get that fo out the water, you got two, two sets on your, on jet ski it's of dangerous. It sounds like a nightmare. Yeah. It's I think it makes a lot of sense to just have one, one board and foil to deal with and rather than two.

And what's really cool is that we've got a system that works. We know how to, to each other into waves, we know how to pick each other up out of waves. We know that we are in, when you're in the crunch zone, we know how to get out of there. So explain to me how exactly you do it.

Like when there's a wave coming and there's a guy in the water, you gotta pick him up quickly. How do you handle it? How do you manage the well what's different between gum and eyes. I'm goofy and he's natural. Oh. So I turn the other side of the ski, he toes on the other side of the ski.

That's just the one thing. So when I, to him, I turn clockwise onto on two waves. When he tells me 80 clockwise on two waves. And no, no straps on the board. Did you use straps? No. No, no strapless. So when. When we in the white water to be able to recover the board quickly enough, and to recover the rider as well.

So instead of trying to get the rider to get to the board, to put it onto the sled, the driver of the jet ski just picks the board up and puts it in the footwear of the jet ski and the for just sticks out just the one side and then the rider can just grab onto the sled and you're outta there.

So we actually, we were talking the other day and we're like, we need to put a handle on this board because when you're trying to grab the board with just one hand and that's, the other thing is when you pick up the board, I naturally always go to pick up the board with my right hand. And that's your throttle hand.

And I'm like wrong side, then you pull the strap off the throttle. I let go the throtle, so I need to help to, keep my hand on the throttles and I need use the other hand, you emergency's

S working

quite refined. Yeah. So that, yeah, one way is to just let the, yeah. Get the board and then get the person or whatever. But what we found, what works pretty well is if you put, if you flip it upside down, have the foil sticking up. And then the jet ski driver grabs the foil and puts it under, like puts the mass under his butt, sits on the foil.

And then the rider jumps on the sled in the back. But it's if the rider and the foil are still together, then he just chucks the board onto the sled with the foil up, as you say. Yeah. And he lies on the board and then you outta there, if the two gets separated then the guy that's that's riding the jet ski sometimes has to pick up the board.

So it depends on how it falls apart. But most of the time I'll pick Gumby up and then we'll go and pick the board up afterwards. But now recently with the smile that we've had, when obviously we don't use a leash the boards ended up on the beach cause it just takes off and it just goes so we've been using, we've been using quite a small lately, which we've been really enjoying I was actually surprised.

That we were riding such a small coil, but it's yeah. What size wing are you riding in the it's a 90, it's the Viper 90, it's the smallest in the range. And I've had a few guys tow fo with it. And the first thing they say is that they're so surprised that it's a 90.

They say it feels just so much bigger. Yeah. When you have the speed, anything feels big. Cuz you create like the speed is what creates a lift, right? It's like when you in a big wave, when you're going super fast, it's like, it always wants to blow out of the water no matter how small it's really, it seems like, yes.

I've actually got guys, they're and they're like, can you make a smaller, we need something smaller. We need 60 or a 70. So I'm sure when I get chance, I'll making a few small prototypes. Interesting. Yeah. So what's new and what's what does the future hold for foiling? What do you think we're kinda at a close to getting to the maximum performance or are we still away and still got a lot of room to there are things that I think are going to Come into foiling.

I've said a couple years ago, it's just gonna be a matter of time until someone starts putting moving surfaces into foils. I'm actually surprised no one's done it yet. Where you'll have stabilization on your foil? I started drawing it. I started toying with the idea, but it's, I've just got so much work on at the moment to go down that rabbit hole is, it's a long rabbit hole.

But I think it's just a matter of time until someone puts a couple servers on the foil with the stabilization system, and then you can remove the stabilizer and you can have an app on your phone or a remote or whatever, and you can dial in whatever stability that you want on your foil. So I think that ultimately is the  until someone does that interesting.

So you're talking like a SVO. Automatically stabilizes the foil, making it like, almost like an autopilot foil that you don't really have to control as much with your own body weight. You can control the sensitivity of the foil through it. At the moment we use a shim to change the deadly chain.

Need to go and take the two screws out, put, just show me or however your system works. Whereas if you have a digital foil you just type in a number and it'll automatically work to whatever you've adjusted it to. So it's not just your Frankfurt pressure. You can change the roll rate, you can make it self stabilizer, you can make it unstable.

You can, the parameters are endless that's and I think until it's done, you're not gonna know, but I think that is going to change foiling again, the same way that high aspect foiling high aspect wings changed foiling. I think digital foils will change foiling. It'll be like a huge step.

Interesting. Yeah. Actually I interviewed mark Rappa horse too, and he actually experimented with something like that and he said it was kinda a fail. Oh, really experiment. But yeah, he wanted to make a foil that basically. Takes off easily at low speeds, for down winters, easy to take off, but then as you go faster, you want it to reduce the drag and have less lift basically as you're going faster, you're going the less lift you want, so that, there's definitely kinda yeah, that, that would be awesome to have a foil that creates a lot of lift that low speeds when you wanna take off and then becomes exactly low drag and low and fast at high speeds, so exactly.

If you just dial in a little bit of on your, like you say, as you take off, get you up on the foil, dial in a bit of reflex at whatever speed it is, or it can be trending gradually and you are there. So that, that in my opinion is the ultimate if it's going to be done, if it's possible to do it, we'll have to wait and see.

All right. So tell us a little bit more about yourself. What's your daily routine and do you go surfing or like for, other than, and working do you have any other hobbies or do you have morning routine? What's your typical day? Yeah, pretty much. Oh, you froze.

Are you still there? Yeah, no. So as I was saying, I've got a list that I work to and. I just go through what, whichever task has priority. And I just work through that list. So you know, like today obviously we dialed in to do the podcast and then there's afternoon, I'm going toiling.

So I've got some new gear that I want to try out. We've come out with a new range of stabilizers. I'll show you here. Have fun

basically.

Listen to, to point is part of the job here.

yeah, that's right. So these are our, these are of tails. So all six of these tails are actually different. So C, G 10, or what is kinda, yeah, these are all CNC G tens like how it came to entails, right? Yeah. So the purpose of these tails is ums, a new idea that I've been working on and it's to help the riders who are still riding with backfoot pressure.

To transition over to Frank pressure and to see the advantages of it. So there are three stabilizers in, in, in the pack and by going through the three different tails, you'll it'll it'll, what's the word it'll show you progressively how you progressing in your foiling. So I wouldn't recommend them for an absolute newbie cause you're not gonna feel the difference.

So once you're already fo and you can do a top turn and a bottom turn, and now you're starting to become more efficient and you're starting your boundary. That's the purpose of theses is to push that boundary that little bit further. So that's what I'm working on. You I'll them and trying them just, just continue developing them, but that's one of the next releases that you're gonna be doing.

OK. So can you explain that a little bit to me? I thinking, so basically the tail creates a downward force and the creates an force, right? So when you have more back foot pressure, that means the tail doesn't have as much downward force. So you kinda have to compensate with your back foot pressure.

So basically by creating more downward lift you create more pressure. Is that's right. So what it's down to personal taste, and if you naturally you like more just about every foiler that I've spoken to, that has come from surfing has started off, liking backward pressure.

But it has a disadvantage and that is when you're charging down the face of a wave, because what happens is the front of your board wants to dive and now you need to lean backwards to stop the, of the board diving. And you shifting your, of behind the center of lift, creating an unstable platform.

Your now becomes unstable and it's difficult to control. And that's why I'm saying to the guys shift over to front foot pressure. Cause when you're charging and you charge down a wave, if you've got front foot pressure, you're shifting your sense of gravity over the center of lift, naturally creating a stable platform.

There's a saying for all the guys that fly radio control airplanes know, and that is, and those heavy airplane flies terrible, but a tail heavy airplane flies once. And that's because it's unstable it, it doesn't handle. And it's exactly the same with the hydrofoil. So if you struggling with your foil setup and you have rear foot pressure put in a shim or increase a little bit of of of the deck angles that you get a little bit of front foot pressure and automatically you'll make the floor more stable.

And it's difficult. It's the same as guys that go from surfing to snowboarding, surfing, all back foot pressure, and now you're going down the mountain and now you gotta put all your front foot pressure onto your front foot gang down the mountain. It's the last thing you wanna do, but you gotta commit and you've gotta do it.

And if you do that, then you can make the turn. And that's what I recommend to guys who are still falling with rear foot pressure is to slowly precision over to front foot and your start, everything changes. And I think it's the next step on the ladder onion.

Yeah. Yeah. Lot parallels, snowboarding, where you kinda have to yourself down into turn down the hill to carve a nice turn, right? You can't lean on your back foot. Exactly. Exactly.

Kind the same. You want really? Cause the front wing is where you is your, where you, that you're, you're riding the front wing, not the back wing. So yeah, I personally like,  very balanced toil. I don't like it. I don't like excessive front foot pressure. I can't keep my front pressure as light as possible.

However, as you're going through the speed range, if you get to a point where the foil tux, you don't have enough front foot pressure, so it becomes pitch sensitive. So if you, if your fo is pitch sensitive, then you are riding a tail stabilizer that's too small. So either increase the surface area of your tail stabilizer or increase the angle.

So that creates more downward pressure you played around of the way its to the board. I get, I guess basically the boarder I guess early on when people were just sticking the plate Mount stick on mounts, on their surfboards and then they had a lot of rocker in the tail and then the foil was angled down too much and they couldn't gets on the takeoffs and then were usings to get more lift.

But then thing is the downside of having too much Pitch angle, then you end up at higher speed with flying, kinda with the nose pointed down where it to keep it, keep the foil in the water. So do you, have you played with that? So I saw that right in the beginning when I started making plate Mount MOS and I realized that I would say 70, 80% of the foils that are being sold were being retrofitted into surfboards and naturally you have a rocker on the surfboard.

So all the first generation unis all had a natural tilt in the mast. So the actual base plate had a already built into, oh

yeah, I did those MAs for probably two years, maybe three years. And then there were a lot of companies that were making dedicated foil boards. And I said to the guys, as long as the back of the foil board was straight then you could use just the standard MOS, but if you had a bit of rocker in, then either you need to shim the mast to get the fuser large parallel to the board.

Yeah that's pretty much how our first uniforms were made with a built in Angle in the base plate. And then only later on when the gas started making foil boards that I actually changed to a flat base. Yeah. Yeah. But I think some people don't realize how much of a difference that makes and how the feels like you, you put just onem between your makes a big difference.

Like just how the board handles too, yes. And this is one of the things that I encourage especially newcomers to the sport is to move the gear around. Don't just put in one place and force yourself to learn it. I took a couple guys out for a session and just by moving the mast on the board made such a difference because I was writing cause I'm a heavier guy.

And the guys that I taking out were a lot lighter just by shifting that Mo just that little bit back made the difference, whether they could actually get up and get foiling and whether they couldn't. So I only, excuse me, I highly to if you're a newcomer to move your mast backwards and forwards in the boxes, cause every four is different.

Every manufacturer is different. And to try and dial in, the sweet spot that works for you because what works for me is not necessarily gonna work for you. Yeah. I totally agree with that. And then. A lot of times, it's not a big change. Like you don't need to move it like two inches, you just move it like a half an inch or something and that'll make a noticeable difference.

And it's also even to the conditions, if I go out and I see, oh, conditions are big, then I'll shift the mouse back a little bit. If I see, oh, conditions are small, then I'll shift it a little bit forward. So it doesn't necessarily just stay in one place. And it all depends on and nothing makes up for experience.

It's like the kits when the guys guard, what size kits shall I use? It's the same with the foil? What setup should I use? Where should I put the foil? And by riding more and more you become in tune with us, where to put the mask on the board, little bit back, a little bit forwards.

I, I think a, in a way it's also been a frustration. I'm writing different gear all the time and I don't become in tune with just one set. Although I must admit I go the Gumby, he's 5, 1 30, where's it bring it, cause that's all we write all be to together.

And now we've shift to the, but yeah that's a way it's an advantage, but it's also disadvantage of writing, gears, constantly changing, trying this and trying that and trying this and, but it's, I enjoy it. It's. Kind a dilemma for you too, because it's kinda part of your job to test different gear and you always have to keep trying different things.

But then on the other hand to me, like I'm kinda the guy that once I figure out what works and then I like to just kind make it my own stick, I just leave it for I'm gonna, and then every time you ride it, you become more used to it. And it becomes kinda, you just develop those nerve.

I dunno, like the muscle memory, you just you know what the thing's gonna do. But trust in the world. Yes. It's like the analogy you said with the bicycle. Yeah. It's like right. Learning to ride a bicycle. But every time you change the flow, you have to learn the new bicycle. Maybe the wheels are a little bigger or whatever, the handle bars there or something like it's different.

Every time you ride change something, you have to learn it again. But if you use the same one over and over again, you become very proficient and very used to it where you don't have to think about it. It just, it becomes a natural thing. And that's also very valuable. So I think both, both there's value to both to try new things and learning, but it does.

But also once you have something that works for you, just use it and get good at it. You don't always have to some people are just always buying new stuff and changing stuff and they never really learn how to use it properly. So before they get the next one. So there's, yeah.

There's a little bit of truth to both. I think so. Very much. All right. So what do you wanna leave people like getting into wing, lot of people that are watching, just learning and,

and things out. I think what's important is I get so many guys that throw me up and I want a foil. And the first thing I ask is what do you want to do with the foil? And when it's a complete newbie, he wants to do everything with the foil, and I was like you need to pick which category do you want to go down?

What kind of foiling do you wanna do? And what do you wanna do with the foil? So that's important is what is your end objective, if you want to w foil cause a w foil set is you can transition it over to surf oil, but it's not really ideal. You can use surf oiling on wing foing equipment. Yes, it is possible, but what's important is to see what is the most important thing to you?

What are you going to be chasing? What is that you want to achieve? So if it's w foing, it's important to get the correct gear for it if it's surf oil, get the correct care for surf oil. So that, that is my advice is to buy the correct care for the job. There's nothing worse than, seeing something for sale for sales and it's cheap buying it and it's not right.

Rather get the right gear. That's going to help you to achieve what you're wanting to do, from the right design to the right size. It's so important. So important. Yeah. It's of, yeah. Like when they buy a footboard, they want like the seven and one, they want the one that for up surfing.

It's good for winding. It's good for and pro too. And one board that does everything. And then it's yeah, we, order a like that for you, somebody one, but it's not gonna be good for any of those things, cause it's just yeah, it does. It does all those things poorly. Yeah. Yeah.

Doesn't do anything well, but yeah, but I guess for beginner that it might work because at least it gets them into it. It's kinda like the soft top surf, they buy Costco to get them started something to get in the water with and learn the basics. But then yeah, once you figure out what you wanna do, that's, it's not gonna be the right.

It's not gonna be the right anymore. But anyway, yeah, it's also, it's a very difficult line to you, to give advice on with even board size, I see boards that are hundred and 60 liters, and I'm like, that is a massive board. I personally would never recommend someone to buy something like that because you're gonna use it twice and you've outgrow it, so if it's for a serve school yes. But to actually go and buy something that is that big it's just too big, UN unless you have a big guy or something, but it's so important that whoever's making the recommendation to the equipment that you're using specifies the correct equipment.

It's yeah. That's so important. Yeah. Very true. Yeah. And that's actually another good tip, but like when you're starting out, maybe. Go take a lesson at a school that has a year board that a couple times, and then you buy a board. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. I highly recommend to, to hook up with the local guys and just get advice, what equipment are they using for the conditions that they're writing in and you just need to do your research.

Don't buy something on a impulse because it's the latest gear or it's cheap or it's whatever I've seen such a surge to guys buying really high aspect Royals, and then you see them all for sales, a few weeks later on, on eBay or whatever, because they don't accomplish what they're trying to do.

So yeah. Super important that you do your research and you get the gear that is right for you. Yeah. Don't get the gear that you need in two years or next year when you're good at it. That doesn't make sense. Exactly. It just makes the learning curve so much harder. It just makes the whole journey unpleasant.

It's not enjoyable because it's a frustration, that's one of the reasons why I never got into surfing because I felt that I would come off the water more frustrated than what I would go in. And then it just didn't appeal to me. So you that's the same with oiling. If you don't get the right gear, you're going to come off the water more frustrated and what you are going into the water.

Yeah. Okay. Get the right gear. Yeah. Wing can be very frustrating in the beginning, for sure. There's not quite enough to get up on the foil or something like that. Struggling. Cursing. It's the, you it's hard to compare to anything else. Really. So it's an extremely rewarding sport, I must say.

Yeah. Okay. Awesome. I think that's good on, thank you so much, Clifford.

Thank you very your time. I try to call you again and see what's new and new all the new stuff. Fantastic. Thank you. Yeah,

foil. Yeah,

we'll see. Have a great day. Okay. You too cheer Robert byebye. Okay. So we got a little bonus material here. I asked if he still had this first flow that he built, so he showed me this photo. So talk a little bit about that. So that was the first prototype that I made. It was actually the cord was actually a lot less.

You can actually see where I've extended. It can you, you can see my mouse point a. So the cord, the ring actually stopped over there. And then I added this section here on, because the four was too high spec ratio and it is, it just didn't have enough lift. So then I just patched on the back section.

Yeah. Just get an idea of what sort of size that I'd need and yeah. You can see the dust on it. It was, but yeah, that, that was the first surf floor that I ever made. Awesome. And then this is all one piece. Like you, you just glassed everything together. It looks like, or no, the so that was a separate fuselage, so that fuselage was bolted onto the front wing.

That's where I realized, the talk on the fuselage is just immense it's not gonna hold it. And that's when I changed the design to include the fuselage into the front wing which has been probably one of the best things, that I've done because the force that is exerted through there is huge.

And the proof of that is the amount of companies that have changed their designs to, to include the fuselage onto the front wing. Cause it's just, it's definitely superior, your responsiveness is that's just so crisp. Yeah, that makes sense. Cause basically your whole body weight gets transferred, or the foil.

It creates the lift and every force from the foil versus everything else is goes through that point on the fus between the Fu and the master front, a lot of force, that's the most, most stressed area on the foil without it out. That, that connection from your front wing to, through the fuselage, to the MOS, cause you're twisting it you trying, share it a bit.

So yeah, it's imperative that, that's really strong. Yeah. And then I guess also the way you lay up the fibers inside the mold to, to those stresses is important too, right? Like the cause you have to have basically that the direction of the fibers has to match the direction of the stresses.

And then looks like you using ATU box or like earlier on that was a what they call the KF box. Oh, it was specifically for kit surfing it a kite foil box. So the first generations of them had just one bolt in and then later on they put two bolts in, so it worked well.

Okay. I thought that was a cool little bonus thing, but at the end, the picture froze and I lost Clifford and he said he had a power outage. Couldn't come back on, but that was cool to see his original foil, this first foil he built that's where it all started, he's definitely a pioneer, one of the first to design high aspect, foils record breaking foils for down winters and so on.

So thank you Clifford for your time and hope to see you again in a year or so. We'll come back for another show at some point. Thank you all for watching. I really appreciate the blue planet customers that make this possible. The people that support blue planet make this show possible. So thank you for that.

And and that's it for today. Have another show coming up soon. So thanks for watching. Make sure to give it a thumbs up and we'll see you on the water. Loha.

Wing Foil interview: Adrian Roper with Axis Foils on the Blue Planet Show

Aloha friends! It's Robert Stehlik, welcome to another episode of the blue planet show, which I produce right here in my home office, in the garage. In today's interview, I speak with Adrian Roper, the man behind AXIS foils. We get into some tips for beginners, and then we talk in detail about foil design, how to set up the foil properly, how different things affect different things on the foil.

New designs he is working on, the mast, importance of stiffness, the fuselage, the angles of the foil. So many cool technical things. I learned a lot from this show. I hope you do as well. I wanted to apologize in advance. The auto focus on my camera keeps going in and out focus, and it's very frustrating for me, but I didn't wanna stop the flow of the interview.  I hope you can just overlook that and focus on the technical details in the interview.

You can watch this interview right here on YouTube, or you can listen to it on your favorite podcast app. So I hope you enjoy this show and as always, please give it a thumbs up if you like it, subscribe to the blue planet surf YouTube channel, and without further do here is Adrian:

Okay. Adrian Roper. Welcome to the Blue Planet show. Thanks so much for joining me. How are you doing today? Good, thanks. Yep. Beautiful sunny day. And it's pretty glassy out there. So it might be a good day to go fishing. Nice. And you're for you. It's like the middle of winter right now, like for us it's summer, but you're on the other side, so it's pretty nice.

Is it pretty cold or how cold is it? It's cold, like compared to Hawaii it's cold, but still went foiling yesterday and had quite a good session. Excellent. I didn't have a full on thick suit on either, so it's not too bad. Okay. Yeah. All right. So this season that I'm trying to start a little bit with beginner tips right away in the beginning.

Last year, I always did that  as an afterthought at the very end, but I want to start with some good tips for people that are new to wing foiling. And then we're gonna talk a little bit about your background and and get more into. The equipment side of things and technique and so on.

So let's start with that. What are some tips you have for people that are new to wining foing same look, we have quite a few learners around us and I guess one of the biggest things is when you're learning, you don't know how to pump properly and getting up on the coil is the biggest.

Just getting up and going. So having a little bit bigger hydrofoil than you might normally think, is a good idea, cuz it helps you get up and also having a slightly bigger wing as you improve with your skills, you don't need quite so much having an easy writing foil makes a difference. And like with the access stuff the BSC range that we came out with, the bigger ones, the 1 0 6 oh and the nine 70, they were particularly good and they are particularly good for people to learn on.

And then we've also introduced the recently the SES, which is like a complete package and that comes in 1 0 4 oh and nine 40 and it's basic and simple.  But it works really well. And it's a great entry into the whole access platform. You can, upgrade it as you want bits and pieces wise.

But it they're both the BSC range and the SES are particularly good for learners. You can stand in slightly the wrong place, you get away with a murder with them and they just, they still ride along quite nicely easy to carve, nice to ride. Okay. So using a. Big foil and a big wing.

That makes a lot of sense. And then, yeah, so you have that super easy start package now where I guess it's made particularly with beginners in mind. Yeah. Yep.  Same base plate, same mask. The fuselage is slightly different, but it's similar to our normal red fuselage. The front wing was based on a BSC wing.

But we've rounded the ends off more so that you can't stab yourself so easily. And we also, because we're, it's a different construction, we've made it out of colonial wood. So it's a solid wood core with a fiberglass laminate. And that makes a strong wing, that's a bit more affordable. And we thin the profile out a little bit on it which is actually quite a good thing.

It runs quite nicely and it's a fun setup to use. Okay. And then right now you have it in two sizes. So basically one for the the bigger riders with almost 2000 square centimeters and then one for li right. Lighter riders with 1668 square centimeters. So both of those should have plenty of lift, right?

Yeah. I think a lot of people, when you're getting into foiling, they walk into a store and there's just so many foils and it's also confusing and they just, I don't even know where to start. This breaks it down to AO over 80 kg or less than 80 kg. This is the one that'll work for you, and it makes it a lot easier.

And they can go away, get started, have fun and work it out from. Okay. And then obviously you're also using a floaty stable board, especially when you're starting out. Definitely makes it easier, right? Yep. Yep. Yeah. Some of our learner boards are, have ridiculous amounts of volume in them. We work with a school in Auckland here and we've got a board there.

That's I think it's six foot eight and it's, I dunno, 160 liters or something. It's crazy volume. They've used that with the 1 0 4 oh SES package and it just gets people up and going. It's not you don't necessarily ride it too many times cuz it's such a big board, but no matter, someone can stand on it, wobble around, easy to get up and going.

You've gotta make it easy. I think for beginners, it's not it's not an easy, not a super easy sport to learn at the start, so you've gotta make it so that everything lines up easy and not too hard to get into. Yeah. I would say though, like you progress pretty quickly past that beginner board stage there very quickly.

So I would recommend, instead of buying one, maybe either borrowing a big board or using a big standup foil board or just renting one, or taking in a lesson and then if you have a school me, that's the best thing is to take a lesson from a school and they can, work you through a couple of boards so that the, by the time you buy a board, it's something you're actually gonna hang on to for a little bit, because you do move down.

You're right. You do move down very quickly through the boards. And then in terms of like that, I mean that those are good tips for equipment, but what about technique or Conditions and so on. What kind, what are some other things selecting? Selecting good conditions are really important. Like finding somewhere that's not too choppy.

And if there's waves and stuff, it's hard work to swim out through waves and try and, get up and going while there's waves around. So if you can find a sheltered Harbor or lake situation to learn, that makes it a lot easier and finding wind, like I said before, getting up and going is the difficult thing.

So if you can still learn the lessons of standing up and holding the wing and getting things in five knots. But you are unlikely to get up and going. So when you are ready to get up and going, you need 15, 18 knots to get up and going. Really. It makes it easier if there's a bit of breeze, bit of power.

Yep. Agreed that. Yeah. Ideally you want about a little bit 15 to 20 knots maybe and smooth water if possible. And then. Also a place where you can if you end up drifting down wind where it's easy to get back up wind or, where you don't end up getting blown offshore or something like that.

Yeah. Our local beach manly here is really good for learning. You start at the top end, you go out, you make a couple passes and if you get going good, if you don't, you slowly drift down the beach and end up on the beach and just walk back up the beach again and have another go. It's, you don't wanna be in an offshore situation where without other people around where you're gonna get blown away, for sure.

Okay, great. Yeah. Those are some good tips, I think for people starting out. And so let's talk a little bit about you your background, like where, where did you grow up and how did you get into water sports? How did you get into the foiling industry or, water sports industry I was actually born in America.

I was born in chapel hill, in North Carolina. My father was going to university there and I lived there till I was about two. And then I moved back to New Zealand and to Auckland New Zealand and grew up here. I spent time in my father, did a sabbatical leave from university and I lived a year in Bristol when I was about, I don't know, maybe 10 or something.

And then, but I basically grew up at the beach in Ross bay, in Auckland. I had a peak class at little sailing dinghy, and I learnt to sail yachts. As a young kid had a boat and did lots of fishing and stuff Ming around from there. And some of my mates started getting wind surfers and it was the early, early, early days of windsurfing.

And I wanted to windsurfer as well. And my parents wouldn't buy me one. I was 14 or something, I think at the time. And my mother offered to help me build one. So I did lawn mining rounds and got the money for it. And I actually found a recipe for a windsurfer and a French magazine, and I had to learn French so that I could translate it.

You didn't have internet back then, so it was a bit more tricky. And I built the windsurf for myself from scratch in the back room. It was Paula Styron. So there's bubbles everywhere in the back living room of the house. And it was plywood skinned and I made the sail and the mast and the boom and all the various bits of it.

And my mother helped me with that. , I. They were trying to just help me learn to do things for myself. And they had ideas of me going to university and everything, but I just got so struck by windsurfing and building things that I got into that. And I've done that ever since.

I got a job at a windsurfing shop when I was about 18 years old and I learned to laminate and I also worked in sales in the shop. And then when I was, where was this? Was this's in, in Aland. In Aland. Okay.   Okay. Okay. Yeah. And then when I was 19 20. I decided to move to Hawaii and I actually came to Oahu, cuz I thought that was the spot to go to.

And I was in Lana, Kai, what's the spot there. I worked for windsurfing Hawaii for okay Kai. Yeah.  Yeah, Kai bay. And I went surf there for a bit. But after a month or so everyone kept coming back from Maui raving about Maui. So I thought, oh, I better go to Maui. So I rang a mate of mine, used to work for a.

And and Mai SALs Maori. So I rang SALs Maori and asked if they had any work. And they said, oh, maybe try the factory. So I rang the factory and I got hold of some guy called Jimmy Lewis. And he said, what do you do? And I said I'll laminate. And he said I'll laminate her left yesterday.

How soon can you get here? So I flew over and Jimmy gave me a job at Sal woods Maui, and that was run by Mike Walt and Fred Haywood and Jimmy. And it was in the old cannery. And that, so I worked there for a year or so and did that and that it was great fun. And I went back and forths between Hawaii and and and New Zealand.

And when I came back to New Zealand I started shaping boards. Jimmy had given me a few ideas about shaping. So I learned to shape boards in New Zealand and built wind surface. I had many. Sorry, the time in you are in Mai, when was that? Like in the eighties or 83 or something like, that was one of those.

Okay. Okay. It was pretty early on right a year or so since Mike Wal had discovered who keeper as a windsurfing destination. So it was great. That's when they just like, started using foot straps and like tiny boards and stuff like that, right? Yeah. Yeah. It wasn't that long after harnesses, even it was early.

Things developed quite quickly there and over the trips I worked for various people, I worked for Angulo as a fiberglas for years. And then I ended up getting a job working for Peter Toman, who was the F two shaper. And he built all Bjorn, dunker, Beck, and Brit dunker, Beck's race boards and most of the world cup teams.

So I did all a board building for them, and there was another guy did the Sandy and finishing, and Peter did all the shaping and learned. So much there, Peter was really great and very analytical with the way he did things. And it was a pretty good situation too, because they had, it was the heyday of windsurfing.

And there was plenty of money for things. So we could try anything and, anything we'd tried, it didn't necessarily have to be sold to make money. It worked, it didn't work. We learned something from it, move on, it was so we learned a lot about construction quite quickly and had a lot of fun with that.

So I did board building with that forever. And in my time when I was coming back and forwards, I started a company in New Zealand called underground and it was underground windsurfers at the time. And I built underground windsurfers for years. And I built them in Auckland originally and then built them in, I, one of the times I came back from ma I ended up being in Christchurch.

So I built a factory in Christchurch and built windsurfers there. I'd windsurf at that stage for a lot of years and I was a little bit bored with it. Especially if it wasn't decent waves or whatever, and the local conditions, weren't that exciting. And then we saw videos of kite surfing and, from Maui and some of the early stuff and thought that looks cool.

So thought we'd get into that. So we started building boards and found a. And Ash Burton, Pete, Peter Lynn and he was building kites and he was selling them in Europe. So we ended up hooking up with him and building kite boards. And, we started just doing Peter Lynn, kite boards, but then we did more and more underground kite boards and we sold those all around the world.

And that for years built the factory up, had a lot of guys working full time and it was pretty full on. And then one day we had a fire and everything got burnt, gone overnight. So we lost the factory. The retail store sail loft, everything was gone and had to rebuild from scratch.

And that was an absolute mission. And by the time I'd redone that I'd started to lose a lot of, a bit of enthusiasm for that. I just needed a break. And a guy in China offered to. My label underground and the whole setup and that their construction system. So sold that and moved that to China. And I went back and forth and learned to work in China basically.

And that didn't go so well for them for various other reasons of things that happened in China at the time. And the underground label went bankrupt and there was a bit of a sad time, but it wasn't my baby anymore, but it was still something I'd created. So it was a bit sad.

And at that stage Evan who I worked with in the states he had been selling my underground boards in San Francisco for years. And he was one, he was the first to sell my underground boards there. And he said, look, what you had was too good, let's start something new. So we came up.

With the name access. And originally we were building kit boards and we did that. And then Evan got hooked on foiling and tricked me into getting hooked into foiling  and started with kite foiling and then learned to sub foil and did sub foiling for quite a long time. And then when winging came along, got into that.

And did you come up with the name access? I'm curious. We had a lot of different, there was a struggle and we had a lot of different names. One of the problems with underground was always fitting it on the board. It such a long name. It always became a little skinny ribbon on the bottom of the board.

So we figured it had to be something about three or four letters long. And, it took a long time, but what we liked about access was it, with kite surfing, it was rotating around an axis. So a lot of the kite loops were spinning around an axis, jumps off axis. Axis is a pivotal moment as well.

It just, it, I don't know, it made sense and I like it and okay. You never know where a name you start with something and it changes to what the sport changes and it doesn't fit anymore. But I think access is a good name. I like it. Yeah. Okay. Okay, so then you got, so you got into kite foiling, keep going  kite foiling, and then start foiling and did that in Christchurch a lot and developed stuff foils to a point we started doing that and we started using our original mask that we had back in the day.

And it was an OEM mask. It was only 15 mill thick aluminum, and it was pretty wobbly. And our first wings that we built were, nine, 20 sort of span. And we pretty quickly realized that mask just wasn't gonna work. While a lot of other companies were jumping onto. Sport and building product, we were desperate keen to build product, but we felt like everything needed to be redesigned.

And so starting with that mask, we worked out that for kite foiling, it was okay at about seven 50, but at 900, it was just a noodle and it was impossible to use. So we worked out that it needed to be 224% stiff. To be the same feel at 900. So that was our target figure. And we actually came up with our original 19 mil aluminum mass, which we still build now.

And that was, it was 224% stiffer than the original. And it was only an 8% weight gain. So when you build a, an aluminum extrusion, you can draw it up on the computer and you can analyze the bending moment of it and change. See the stiffness. You can work out how long a masks gonna be, how much it's gonna weigh, how stiff it's gonna be and analyze all that way before you even build it.

So we went through that and did that and came up with a 19 mill mast. Originally it was designed for sub foiling and relatively slow speeds. And it's absolutely fine for that. It's actually fine for winging as well, but as the sport has evolved and things have got going a lot faster 19 mills is thick and it's not perfect for high speed to foiling for example, but the stiffness we felt is really important.

And that's something that we've always run with our foils from day one. Yeah, I mean that the stiffness of the whole setup, not just the mass, but also the way the fuselage connects to the front wing and all that's what sold me on access and why I started using it.

And and also of course the many different wing designs you have available and always evolving with more and more. Yeah, so we'll get into the gear, but so then basically just wanted to finish the story of like how you got into this. So then from the making foils for standup paddling yeah.

So then what was the evolution from there? We also, as a sideline back then we built a foil for windsurf foiling and it was a 900 span. And I can't even remember how narrow the cord was, but was quite a narrow high aspect wing at the time. It was completely different to anything else.

And we ended up using it for surfing a lot and for prone and for for supp as well. And that was a turning point as of discovering that wings don't have to be these low aspect, big fat piggy things. So . Yeah. And that was the first wing that I used for the 900 was the first wing that I used when I went wing.

Okay. Okay. And then it's, it seemed like when you first started access, it was more focused on board building and so on. And now it seems like you're more focused on foils. What's your percentage of like foil sales versus board sales, what approximately? I don't know exactly without looking at a thing, but I we, I've spent a lifetime building boards and I feel like I've tried just about everything that you can try.

And very quickly I can say, yep, that works, doesn't work. And I know that, cause I know it inside out and then foiling came along and I didn't really know how to build hydrofoils. And just the way that I work, like I questioned everything, there was other foils on the market and, they were doing, Everything that like, for example, some of the early fours, the front wing was set at the same angle as the fuselage.

And I said why is that? And everyone said, oh, it's just how it is. And it's had been, the first people did that. And then everyone just copied that. And I tried to question everything that we did. And try and work out. I think if you can understand the reason for something, it makes it a lot easier to nut out what, how you're gonna build it better.

I try and do that with customers as well. When I'm talking to people, I probably give 'em too much information, but I try and educate them so that they can actually understand it and then they can make a sensible decision. Cause it kind makes sense. But that, that front wing fitting on there, for example, we, every foil that we analyzed has a, an angle of attack where like obviously more angle of attack you generate more lift a flatter angle of attack.

You generate less lift, but it can go faster. Every foil section has a different sort of sweet spot and you can analyze that. And our original wings, we set at about two degrees to the fuselage and now the modern a R T HBS they're set at one, one degree to the fuselage, the idea being that the fuselage is running.

For the most part through the water in a straight line, like an arrow, not dragging like this, not, up or down, just straight through  that foil angle changes as you go faster and slower, but generally for most of you, you are riding it. It's running straight. Yeah. And I guess I like, and I know a lot of people shim their their plate Mount between, between the board and the plate Mount.

And that kind of, I guess if the board has, it seems if the board has a little bit of tail rocker, then the board you can lift up on the foil, but it's, I guess if the, I noticed that if the boy, if the foil is angled up too much, then when you're flying at high speeds, you end up flying with the nose slightly pointed downward, and then that's like catastrophic if you touch down because you're basically wipe out right away.

And it seems like it's easier, definitely easier to control the foil once it's up. If the nose is, if any, if anything, a little bit higher flying a little bit high than, or flat, but definitely not pointed downwards, right? Yep. I think with your board, when it, my fingers don't go straight anymore, but when a board touches down if it touches down tail first like that it's gonna crash pretty badly.

If it touches down those first, obviously that's complete disaster. You want it to touch about where the base plate is or just in front and it just pop back up again. So right. That the angle that you need to set your board at, and , generally when I build an access foil and an access board, everything works together with no need for any shim on the base plate, but right off using an access foil with some other board.

And there's nothing wrong with that, but sometimes you need to adjust the angle that the board flies on a little bit with a  shim. Yeah, yeah. Cuz yeah, basically if you add more angle to the front wing that, that angle of attack it's a little bit easier to take off. Like the takeoff speed is lower a little bit, but then at the same time sometimes it's harder to control it at high, higher speeds.

I've not, I've noticed if it have too has too much angle, but yeah. So ideally if it's tuned you want it to be easy to lift off, but also easy to control at higher speed. So it should just run along without too much, lifting up or dropping down. It should just run along nicely.

I've actually just, I got pissed off with the whole shimming thing because it seems to be a complete and utter confusion for most people. And a couple of three days ago, I just wrote it, wrote, I sat down and explained it all and wrote it all down properly and we're actually adding it to our brochure and it will be in there.

And it explains shimming of the rear wing and also base blade shimming and. Like I said before, if you explain it to people, it's pretty basic. And once it's explained, it's a lot easier to understand happy to go through that a little bit and explain that the shim rear wing the shimming, the rear wing.

Yeah. Let's get into that. Yeah. I find that my, on my axis wings that I've used, I've been able to just use 'em without any shims not necessary, but I guess, yeah, I have tried adding the shim in the tail in the back, but I didn't really, how much do you weigh? Sorry, go ahead. Oh, how much do you weigh?

I'm like   like 1 95 pound hundred 95 pounds. Which is I think around 90 or around, yeah. Around 90 kilos. So you're, you are the correct weight if you are the correct weight, same as me. Then everything should run smoothly. If you're outside that weight range, if you're really light or if you're really heavy, then adding some shims helps a little bit.

Okay.  Just, I've got some bits here to try and explain it. There's your fuselage and there's your front wing and that bolts on that front wing there, this is an a R T 7 99. Access always does their wings by span, and I can go into that later as well, but that, that front wing is set at one degrees to, to diff fuselage the more angle of attack the more lift, the less angle of attack the faster it goes.

. I'll try and explain this as, as well at the moment now. So the angle that this wing flies at you can't trick the wing into riding at a different angle that rides at the angle that it wants to ride at. And more angle of attack is more lift and then less angle of attack is less lift. It happens.

I'll quit that stupid mail in, yeah, my mail app too.  go ahead. When you are riding along it, if you are riding it too much of an angle of attack, the foiler will come up and will jump out of the water and you'll crash. If you're riding it too lower, an angle of attack, the foyer will drop down and your board will hit the water.

So you don't actually have to think about it, your wing automatically, you automatically set the angle of that wing so that it's about right for this. And the angle of that wing rides at is dependent on your weight and how fast you're going. So I generally set it all up for winging and around 85 kg.

So if you are, most of the wings will run straight, no gyms, no need for anything at if you are around about that weight now. So the front wings angled up slightly, one degree the rear.

This is a 3, 2, 5 that's actually angled downwards slightly. So the front one's angled up. The rear one's angled down. The reason that's angled down is it actually, and the foil sections upside down. So it's actually pushing downwards. That downward force actually pro provides a lifting force, which balances a against your front foot.

When you are foiling, you have a front foot pressure and back foot pressure. And you're basically standing around that wing and, trying to balance nicely on that. The size of this rear wing the bigger it is, the more force it, it gives you. And when you are learning and you are more clumsy, you need more force to actually balance against, but as you get better, you can use smaller and smaller wings and you need less to balance against.

So that back wing as stock on the fuselage. The progressive wings, that's angled downwards at one and a half degrees. So the most important thing about shimming is the angle between the front wing and the back wing. So if that front wing is angled up at one degrees, the back wing is angled down at one and a half degrees.

The difference between the two is two and a half degrees. So that number two and a half degrees, that's it. That's the one that actually matters. And that's the one that counts. Everything else is hoo-ha, the angle to a tree over there or whatever, it doesn't make any difference. This is the one and a half degrees.

This one degree here, two and a half degrees difference. Now the shim that we have, the stock ones that you can download and get is the that's a positive shim, and that is a negative shim. Now the reason for the naming convention on that, which here's the biggest confusion is because a lot of companies use something different on that now to get more front foot pressure, if you are heavier and you need a bit you want this rear wing to be more active, you need to angle it down a bit more.

That makes it do its job a little bit more so that if you add a degree of angle down this rear, Wing's now on two and a half degrees. So you've got one plus two and a half. You've got three. So I describe that as positive shimming. Because it's in addition to what the original one was three and a half, you mean?

Yeah, three and a half, three and a half.  With the if you flatten it off, if you're lightweight or can cope with a flatter angle on the rear the wing, the foyer will run faster. But it'll be a bit more twitchy and a bit harder to balance unless you're smaller and then it'll be perfectly comfortable for you.

So if you reduce the angle of that rear, you've got one degree at the front, let's say you've reduced this one degree at the back. This is only now half a degree. So you've got a difference of one and a half degrees. So I call that a negative shin because the number is smaller than the stock. Does that make sense?

Yes. Okay. Much easier if you can talk about it in those terms, because the moment everyone talks to each other and says, oh yep. I've done negative Shing. Is that negative? Or is it not negative? No, there's no established terminology as to why it would be negative or positive.

I've seen some videos of some guys trying to explain it and I've sat through the whole thing. And at the end of it, I had no idea what they're talking about.  how's the customer supposed to actually look at? I like how you, yeah. I like how you explain it as a difference between the front and the back. Do you have anybody that's shimming the front angle, the wing the angle of the front wing at all, or not really not re not really.

You can on an axis wing, you could actually put a packer in here. Yeah. And we have done that. And so the wing has got more angle of attack at the front. Yeah. But all that's gonna do is like I said before this wing finds its own way. So what are you really adjusting is the angle of the fuselage, right?

This is unchanged. Yeah. Yeah. No, makes sense. Yeah. Cause but basically you want the fuselage to be flying more or less parallel to the to the water surface. You don't want that to be dragging either direction. Yeah. Yeah. That's the end. But in with that in mind as when you take off, when you first take off, you actually have a slightly more angle of attack and then as you go faster and faster, you flatten that off.

So the angle of the fuselage is it's not absolutely always gonna be parallel to the water, but we said, so that when you're at your average sort of speed, it's generally going dead, flat parallel to the water. Load dry. Makes sense. Yeah. Okay. Adrian, I'm gonna, I'm going since we're talking about equipment and stuff, I'm gonna get into some questions here.

I got these questions from guys in New Zealand from Dan, our distributor, like he collected some questions for you from his friends. So the first question was regarding weight that, saying the access gear is heavy compared to other foils, any thoughts on developing a lighter high modus, mass and carbon fuselage?

And what effect does weight really have? When under the water. So can you talk a bit about the effect of the weight? Yep. As far as I I wouldn't say axis is heavy. I would say it's actually, like I said before, the stiffness of the mask, like the stiffness of everything, like the front wing, the way it joins to here is really important.

That joint is really important.  The joint from the fuselage to the ma is critical. The stiffness of the mask is critical and the stiffness of the whole thing, if you've got wobble or play or anything, you, you lack control of that front wing, you are only riding that front wing. That's basically what you're writing.

So anything that compromises that attachment to the front wing is not gonna make writing better. It's gonna make it more difficult cuz it's wobbling round and not connected to you. I actually think. Access is a realistic weight. And I think that some of the ones that you might be comparing it to the mask is not sufficiently stable.

The joints are not sufficiently stable and if you were selecting foils and you would looking at the important things. The weight might be questioned number 234. And by the time you get to that question, everything else is eliminated anyway. So I don't agree. That is a heavy setup.

I think some of the other ones are actually too soft altogether. Yeah. And I would agree with that. That's in my opinion, like the act like the, yeah, the rigidity comes first and then the weight is in my opinion, like a secondary concern after rigidity and also the foil, because the foil is underwater.

And the, has the, basically a lower center of gravity than the board and everything above the water. It I think the weight on the foil seems to matter less than the weight of what's above the water. And I've, I've had an, a prototype early on that was CNC CNC out of a solid block of G 10 fiberglass.

And the front wing was like a, a heavy, beginner wing. And it was super heavy. And I thought it'd be impossible to use because it's so heavy, it was really heavy to carry to the water and stuff like that. But then in the water, it felt really solid. Like it had a very basically a low center of gravity.

It's like a keel. And even when I was flying it, it felt very very stable. So the, I guess the weight is not in, in a foiler and the fus slides is not always a bad thing. I would say. We've used G 10 to prototype quite a few of our rear wings. And it's, it's good for testing out.

It's not, ideally it's not really stiff enough. And as the wings become more high aspect, like the, that 7 99 that I had there before something that's long and skinny like that you build that in G 10, it's gonna be too floppy to even use. It's just not gonna be stiff enough. Yeah the rigidity is really important.

I, one of my favorite wings that I'm writing at the moment, it's I think it's a 1100 span. And it's got a mean average cord of about 89. So it's, and it's quite thin. But we built it in several different constructions. And one of the constructions, just as a test, we built it out of solid carbon all the way through the wing itself is about two and a half kilograms.

You give it to people and it's just, you just about drop it. It's really heavy. Ride's fine. I can't even feel any difference to it. I don't think weight is as important as a lot of people think. I do think there is a change to that, and that is if you are riding with your foil in the water.

So if you're toe foiling, if you are surfing, if you are winging, most of the things like if the foil is in the water, most of the time, no problem at all. But if you're doing freestyle, if you're doing jumps and spins and tricks, having a lighter weight mast and foil so that you can do your freestyle stuff, that would for sure be better, but yeah.

Also rotations and things. It's a massive compromise. It's a massive compromise for when you're falling along on a straight line, because you just lost that connection for. Yeah. Agreed. So then the next question was regarding foil design, are we fast approaching a point of peak performance for foils where we can't get much better and where to go from there?

No. I think we're just getting started. That's the fun part. Yeah. I agree. I think there's still so much R and D to do and things. It seems every time something new comes out, it's like a big jump forward. I don't think we'll that we're anywhere close to being at the point of peak performance.

I should poke that in there at this time. Yes. That's the new mass. So yeah we talked about this earlier, but you said you're just getting ready to release this. And I guess by the time I'm posting the interview, this is gonna be available, right. Yep. It's actually we're doing the release, but we don't necessarily have stock ready to send out.

We were trying, we normally, when we do a release, we actually have stock built and it's already to go. But in this case here, it's, taking time to build a decent amount of stock and there's too many people have seen this mask already. And they're asking questions and we can't really answer questions because, it's not officially released.

So we've had to just say let's do it. This is a seven 50 version of the axis power carbon mask. Now the power carbon ma comes in a high modules and it comes in a standard modules. Construction. Our previous carbon masks that we've done, they, they were not as stiff as our 19 mill menu mast.

But they were thinner like a 19 millimeter. Mast is an extrusion. So it's 19 mills top to bottom. So that means you're pushing 19 mills through the water, perfectly fine for a learner for SAP, for a lot of things. It's absolutely fine for dock start pump where the rigidity of the ma is really important, fantastic mask for that.

But with the advent of more high aspect wings and running faster it, 19 mills is just too thick. The new power carbon mask, the bottom section of the ma here, where it goes into the fuselage, the bottom 300 mils is about 15 mils thick, and then it gets thicker and thicker and a hundred mils down.

It's still 20 mils thick. When you  Like when you design anything on computer, you can use finite element analysis and you can actually bend that mast and see where the stress in it is. And when you bend it, all of the stress is concentrated around this area here on a mast.

And you know that from all of the masks that have, failed in the shop, they always kink at the base plate or break there. So one of the most important things, if you wanna try to build a decent mask is that it's one piece, the fibers from here run all the way down and right through and into the base plate.

Any sort of a join in here to me seems like way too much of a compromise. This is the most important part of building a stiff mask. Back to the stiffness of this ma like the two versions the standard carbon one is 25% stiffer than the 19 aluminum. And the high medulous is 35% stiff.

Now that's a massive amount. And the first time I rode this ma I was using the 1 0 9, 9 wing. So sorry to interrupt you. But in terms of that, the, how do you measure the stiffness? Is it like torsional stiffness or side bending or like how do you define that? What I do is I bolt that ma to a wall and then at this end here, I hang 25 kilograms off these two bolts, and I measure the deflection at the sharp edge of the back of the mast.

So it's the sideways bending, yeah, sideways bending, but what about the torsional stiffness cuz that's really important as well, right? The twisting. Absolutely. Absolutely. So that's one way of bending. So I isolate the both. So that purely then is only bending testing for sideways bend.

Yes. The other bend we do is we put a fuselage on there. We use a a standard fuselage because it's got the longest tail section on it. And I put a pivot point here to the ground, to a concrete floor so that the mask can no longer be in sideways at all. And then off the rear. Screw. I hang 25 kilograms and I measure the deflection of the fuselage at the end.

So that's measuring the twist force of the mask only. Okay. Poor little mask with 25 kg hanging off the back of the fuselage. It gets quite a twist in it. Yeah. And so that extra 25 or 35% stiffer, is that the case in both directions or cuz I know depending on how you lay up the carbon inside the carbon layer, the direction of the carbon makes a big difference on the, that torsional those stiffness, for sure. You can do it a lot with that. But the truth is to get a master stiff as the 19 mil aluminum ma it would need to be 19 mil stick all the way through. And you can't do that because of the, this is 15 mil, so it's lower drag down here. The torsional rigidity is about the same as the aluminum ma, but the sideways bend is a lot more.

Okay. Yeah. And yeah. When you write it the first ride I ever had on the high ulus mask, when we finally built one I was on the 1 0 9 9 and the mask was 900 length. The other thing is the length obviously is a big change. So if you're comparing the bend from one mass to another, you have to compare a seven 50 to a seven 50 or a, an eight 20 to an eight 20, or a 900 to a 900, as it gets longer, the movement at the end is gonna be longer just nature of how it is.

My first go was on a 1 0 9, 9 front wing a 900 power carbon, high modules. And it was the first time ever that I'd felt that connection to the front wing. I felt totally connected so I could carve and do whatever. You're talking about weight before this mask is not really any lighter than the 19 mil aluminum with a base plate and a do that in it.

But the stiffness in the field, the connection is just through the roof and it there's quite a big price difference too. They is, it cost by like almost 10 times as much as a aluminum mass. That's expensive. Yeah. Yeah. And so one thing I wanted to mention for that, those of you who are interested in getting a stiffer mass, is that what really makes a difference too is like you said, the length of the mass, obviously if you have a longer mass, you need, it needs to be stiffer, basically.

So if you're lightweight using a narrow WK span, smaller foil, Or yeah, or, and, or a shorter mass, you can get away with using a more flexible mask. And also in the surf, sometimes having a little bit of flex, you get used to it, but if you're heavier rider, if you're going fast and using a wider WPA, a bigger wingspan foil and you're yeah.

And you're going faster than in all those situations, I think that you really notice the mass flex, like it really affects the performance, even when you're doing down winters and just taking off with a big foil. If there's some mass flex, the whole setup feels very unstable and bouncy, you're always gonna have mass flex that's just the nature of it.

You've got, 900 mil away from your board. You've got a big foil. It's a long dangly thing. There's gonna be some movement. It's never I don't think you can get too stiff. With that in mind, we had a team rider in Australia and he's light, he's about 70 kg and he pumps for an hour, from wave to wave connecting.

And I sent him an eight 20 that's the lengthy rides of the. High mods and the normal medulous carbon. And he rode both and he was amazed, at how stiff the normal carbon was. But after writing both, he said, why wouldn't you have the extra stiffness, the stiffness it's more expensive.

And I think it's better. But like you said, if you are. A lighter weight person, if you're riding a smaller foil and a shorter mast, you'd probably, the other one's fine. But the high ulus is the stiffest good point about the stiffness? I think it's yeah. And for most people's stiffer is just gonna work better and I want to apologize, my camera's going crazy up here.

I don't know what's wrong with it. Check the settings, but I can't really do it right now, but anyways so another question here is what is now considered the fastest foil combo, in the fo in your range and what is the recommended access track positioning set up on a new boot planet?

Wingmaster fusing straps. I don't, that's something I can answer, but I guess you can answer the first part about the fastest foil combo. I guess the fastest at the moment would be the 7 99. And paired with either a a three 80 or a the high aspect three 80 rear or the like a 3, 2, 5 or a 300 rear would be considered the fastest setup we've got at the moment.

I guess the a R T range. What we've tried to do with that is make something that's really GLI and easy to use and fun to use. It was never intended to be the fastest wing in the world. It actually goes pretty fast, but the GLI is perhaps the most amazing thing with it. We are working a lot on more race stuff now for for down winding and we will have stuff we're doing a lot of stuff with James Casey, cuz he wants to, have race gear for down winding.

I should say while we're talking about that ma there like when we came out with that stiffer mast, loved it, amazing, huge difference, massive leap forward. But we also noticed that all of a sudden, we could feel flex in the front wing, the narrow high spec front wings. We could feel differences in that.

You could never feel that with a soft Damas because everything was just moving. But now with a stiffer mask, you can isolate that. So we've actually gone back and analyzed the flex and the wings and done all sorts of different constructions in the front wings to to stiffen them up and change the way that is.

And so construction is becoming far more, an important part of wing building. If you think back to the early days with the nine 20 with a massive cord and huge thick wing, The thing didn't flex much anyway, if at all. But some of the wings now, like there's a prototype I've been writing at the moment it's 1200 wide and it's got a mean average cord of 87.

It's 13.4 aspect ratio and it, wow. To get that to hold together is quite some trick. And again, a wing like that, there's just no way you could have used it on the old mast or even the aluminum cuz it runs too fast for that. This new mast for me is a huge breakthrough and it means that we can actually advance all sorts of things from here.

Okay. Like you also have that high performance speed range, but you're saying actually the a R T range or the a R T 7 99 is actually faster than the the high performance speed range. It has less cord it, it came before the its higher aspect. Yeah. Yeah, I describe any, when I describe any wing at all my, my way of analyzing it too is a bit different to a lot of other wings.

So the first thing I look at is the span, how wide is the wing? The next thing I look at is the mean average cord, the mean average cord is the different distance from the back of the wing to the front of the wing. The mean average cord is what's the average of the whole entire wing.

And then I look at the foil section that's been used inside to, to create that foil. And every foil section has a certain amount of Canberra in it. Canberra is the amount, it's a line that's halfway between the there's the top of the wing. There's the bottom of the wing. There's a line that's midway halfway in between that's the CAMBA line and that's curved upwards.

And if you compare that to a dead straight line, the cord line you look at it as a percentage. So every foil has a certain amount of camber. And generally it's between, one or two up to 4% or four and a half percent camber the higher, the camber, the higher lift at lower speeds generally.

And the flatter, the caner, the faster, the. Goes that wing. You've got there. That's the a, I T they're all a a two and half percent can in them. And it's relatively low drag. And what I like about this, the whole RT range is the glide. It just keeps on running and it's easy to use. I like the glide.

They are pretty fast because they've got quite a narrow cord. But if you want to go faster than that, you need a faster foil section and with a FA faster foil section, you also get other compromises in the performance. They're harder to get going. That don't work necessarily through such a wide range.

So you become wings that are very specific for certain tasks. The HPS, the BSC HPS, and a R T they're all a fairly general purpose foil section, which I would say is easy to use, relatively fast for what they are and fun and easy to drive to go beyond that, to really fast stuff is gonna take different portal sections and they won't be so user friendly.

Yeah. So I want to share a little bit my own experience. I was using for a long time using this one here that BSC seven 40, and this is a really nice wing. I really enjoy this for surfing it's like a nice all round kind of wing that carve well and so on. And then you recommended that I try this one here, the a R T 8 99, and it has a bigger wing span.

So it's wider. Move back a little bit, but it also but it has actually about the same surface area, I think, pretty close to the same surface area and what I noticed that yeah, it has amazing glide. Like it it just keeps keeps going once you it just has less drag, less it's more efficient.

So when you're coming or going through attack or something like that, it just keeps going a little bit longer. Like it, it just flies,

it just keeps going, running less drag,   I'm also using the smaller tailing and then the short. This is the 3 23 25 tailing. Yep. And then the ultra short fuselage. And I've only used this a couple times. So the first time I used it I also was using a shorter mass.

So kind of everything, a little bit different. And the, first time I had to definitely get used to the different feel of it. But now I noticed I can get it going in about the same amount of wind. It seems like it needs slightly little bit tiny, little bit more wind to get going than this one.

This one has really nice, low end. Like you can fly really slow and also take off pretty easily for considering how small it is. But yeah, once you're going, it feels very efficient. You can go upwind. I can go upwind, I think at a steeper angle. And so on. And then, yeah, compared I also have this one here, the 700 that this one is the I guess that, is that the high speed or whatever it's called HPS.

Yep. HPS. Yeah, the 700. So this one has I think a thinner profile it's a really fast foil, but. It takes also takes more speed to get it going. And it stalls a little bit sooner than, also because it's a small foil. So this one I, I found for winging, it's only really good and really high wind.

When you have enough, plenty of wind to get it going. Yeah, you, this one, I think, is gonna be a good wing for me in any kinda conditions, not just strong win. I kinda, I'm kind the kind person that once I find something I like, I'm not. Changed it around a lot, just gonna get used to it. And then unless I have someone like you telling me to try something new I don't really, I just kind different.

And every that's the beauty of avoiding is you find what set up works for you. And everyone's got a slightly different idea of what they want to do. I hardly ever ride that 8 99 cuz for me, I like BLI. I like to drop my wing and just coast along surfing, near invisible swell. So I need a bigger span for that.

So I ride generally wings that are a thousand or 1100 span. But probably no more cord than that one. The span, the wider, the span, the more glide the bigger, the cord, the more hand. That's on. If you cut the cord down, it just cuts the drag and it just keeps on rolling. And that that lower drag you'll find on that 8 99, you'll sail through a gas and you're in a lull and the thing will just keep running.

It won't actually stop. Whereas if you're on your older thicker bigger, a  bigger cord foil, there's more drag on it. And it wants to run down and slow down. Whereas that one, there just, it just keeps on going. There isn't much drag. So that's why they're so good for down winding as well, because they just don't once you're up, they don't slide slow down, little bit tricky to get up.

And you would've felt that the first time you had a go of it, you can't really use angle of. To actually get up. You need to almost, when you feel a lift coming, you almost need to hold it down and just do two much bumps to get up to speed, and then it just comes up and you're away. Yeah. If you pop it up too early, it just wants to stall or we install it up down.

Yeah, exactly. But that's pretty much normal with a high, little bit more high aspect flow. I noticed the other thing I wanted to mention is I switched from the black series, short fuselage to the advanced fuselage ultra short. And I noticed right away that holding them up against each other.

If you match the same mass, the mass in the same place, it's quite a bit longer in the front. Like this is the short versus the ultra short or yeah. And then in the back it's about the same difference in the back as in the front. So the diff it's. It's shorter in the front and the back by almost the same diff same amount.

It is exactly the same. So the ultra short is exactly the same length fus overall, but the, so are they both ultra short? No, no one is short and one is ultra short, but I noticed, yeah. The, yeah, so there, so the advance is a new one that we've just come out with and basically what it is like the ultra short is the same.

This is a good, this is a good chance to explain something here. So when we first started  when we first started building four, this is back in the nine 20, the original first wing we ever did. We we actually put the mast directly on top of the front wing. And our theory was that from an engineering point of view, that was the strongest point to attach it.

And we went and forwarded it. It forwarded fine. But it didn't steer, like you'd try and turn and you'd just fall off the side. It didn't actually turn. And we thought perhaps the wing had too much turned down on the tips. So we started making some new tips for it. And the rearing was also doing some crazy stuff as well.

So we started experimenting with the rearing to try and change that. And in as, as well as that, we also built a fuselage with the mask further in a more sort of standard position in the fuselage and straight away we found that's it actually worked fine. After that, we actually built a whole series of fuselage with the mast in different positions.

Further forward and further back, the further back you have it, obviously the more challeng it is to the mast, torsionally it actually tries to twist the mask more. You can imagine if you had to fuselage at the rear wing you'd have no control over your front wing. There'd be just too much flex and movement.

So we found a spot that was a sweet spot and it worked pretty well. And since then from the thickest point of the front wing to the mast has remained the same distance. We've done everything that we've designed has been the same. Whether it's a red fuselage or a black fuselage, whatever wing, the thickest point is about the same distance from the mast.

And we've just run with that and that's worked pretty good. But a while back, we thought it's probably with the super high aspect wings we're doing as the cord gets narrow and narrow the distance between the ma and the front wing starts to look quite great. So we thought it was a good time to revisit that.

And so we built a bunch of black fuselage and we did them with again with a master all various positions. So the advanced fuselage is 40 mil further forward. So when you use it, you have to move the base plate 40 mils further forward as well, so that the wings are in the same place. When you're foiling your front wing, your sorry, your front foot and your back foot is balanced over your front wing.

Yeah. So that's exactly what I just wanted to mention, cuz that was part of the question too. Like when I was using the BSC with the short fuselage the mat, the basically the wing is a little bit more forward. So I had to move the plate pretty much all the way back. You can see the marking like from the rubber on the board, but this was the back of my plate Mount.

And then with the ultra short, there's like maybe like a difference where the foil is slightly further back. So I had to move everything up by, about that same close to that same amount. That fuselage is shorter in the front, basically. Ah, for me, that's what kind of how it worked out.

The advanced Fu lies definitely needs moving forward, but it is slightly complicated and that is the, a RT also because it's such a straight across wing. If you consider the BSC the thickest point of the front wing actually has some curvature as it goes out. Your average lift, if you like for that front wing is slightly further back with thet.

They're relatively straight across cause the pips are quite far forward. And that means that when you go from, if without changing the fusel loads, take the fuselage change outta the equation. When you change from the BSC to the a I T the a, I T probably needs to go back about 20, 30 mil in the box to get the center of lift in about the same position.

But then, so I guess it's a combination of the fuselage being being closer or like the fuselage being shorter between the mass and the front. And also the, I guess the thickest part of the foil is a little bit further back on this wing than on this one. It's a little bit further forward, right? Is that what you're saying?

The thickest point's sort of, not that different in those two wings, the thickness is very different and there's a lot of other things that are different, but the percentage point of the thickest point is about the same in those two foils. Okay. I should explain more about that. So that, that what I, yeah, what I'm saying is cause the cord is smaller.

So then if you look at the thickest point, like you said, it's about a third back or whatever. So it's about here versus the, if you have a wing that has a thicker wider cord than that center of the thickest part of the foil is a little bit further back, right? Wouldn't no. So that the thickest the thickest point of the BSC.

The thickest point of that front wing is about the same as the thickest point of the a R T. Okay. They're about the same, but obviously, because it's got bigger cord, the front of the wing goes further forward. The back of the w goes further back, but the thickest point we've always done about the same.

That's how we've done it. We've set them all up with the thickest point of the wing about the same from when to wing,

but the fuselage you were mentioning there,

that's an advanced fuselage compared to a normal one. So the normal ones here, the advance is 40 mils further forward, and simply what they done. And another difference too, is that it has thicker sidewalls, right? Like I it's a little bit more beefy, right?

That's they're about the same. I'm trying to look at them there. There's not a lot of difference in it. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, I thought it looked a little bit thicker. Like the sidewalls were a little bit more beefed up. I thought it's about the same design, but it's just further forward. So the position of that mask, so you're writing your front wing and your feet are balanced around that front wing.

So when you go for an advanced fus, large, you move the base plate 40 miles further forward. So your wings are in the same place and your feet are in the same place nothing's changed. But the only thing that's changed is the position of the mast for forward and backwards. Relative to everything.

Now that mast is a bit like your fin position in a surfboard. If you move AFIN forward in a surfboard, it makes it looser. If you move it further back, it makes it more stable. And at a faster speed . So the position of that ma is it affects the way it rides. So the advanced fuselage moving the mask 40 mil further forward, hence the name advance.

The reason for that is for a more surfing situation. So if you're riding prone or ORs, or even if you're winging, but you are primarily trying to ride waves, the advanced fuselage is a, it does the job better and feels a lot better for that. There's some negative effects for it as well.

Our normal fuse with the mass further back is a lot more stable at winging speeds. When you're going faster. Also when you're trying to go up wind you can drive against that mast and it goes up wind a lot better on our standard fuselage. So for most people, probably the standard fuselage is just perfect and there's no need to change anything.

The advance is more for people that are dedicated, trying to surf and in a surfing situation. It seems to go from, we say rail to rail, you've got your wing in the water. So it goes from side to side in a smoother way, you don't get a power spike with a mass further back, you tend to turn and then it gets a bit of a power spike.

The same with you turn, when you go the other way with a mask further forward, it just seems to smooth it out. And it feels more like a surfboard turning. Yeah. So one thing I was surprised by with the the a R T range was that it, it feels really actually pretty easy to carve from rail to rail. As compared to other high aspect flow that I've tried that have more of a stiffer feel.

So how did you achieve that? So if we grab that it's pretty hard to try and show it in there. This is an a R T 7 99. So as this wing goes out, the tip is actually twisted off this way. Okay. It's lifted up. And the idea of that is that it's supposed to give the wing more range. I told you before that you are, you have your angle of attack that you're riding on.

And as you go faster, that gets lower and lower, that gets flatter and flatter. If you think of that tip, which is lifted up, as you get flatter, the tip might actually be pointing downwards and creating negative lift. And with that in mind, the very last fall section and the tip of that wings actually symmetrical fo section.

So it's neither lifting, it's just a foil section, a parallel foil section. So we put that in there really just to give the foil more range, which it does do, but a weird side effect of that is when you tip it over to turn, the blade is twisted like a helicopter blade or a, a propel blade.

And it just pivots around that. And some of these wings, they're very straight across and it's not what you'd imagine a surfing wing should look like. But they surf unreal. They turn really good.  And some of our prototype stuff, we've taken that to even more of an extreme. And, you historically, we always thought that you needed sweep in the outline of the wing to make it surf, but I don't believe that.

So some of the wings that I've had that are just the straightest ugliest straight across wings ever ridden if you can get the twist right in it, you tip them over and they just turn beautifully. Interesting. Okay. So a little bit of a twist in the wing and change, and basically, so they have a different profile in the center versus the tip is symmetrical and the center is more.

It's the same foil section all the way out. Yeah. But just the very last foil section that we've put in thet is a symmetrical foil section. I see. We should talk about the tip of that. W too, like people say, why isn't that to a point with a wing that with the Reynolds number of water, as you get to a smaller point the if it came out really skinny here, there's a bit where it just becomes drag.

It's not actually doing any beneficial lift or anything. So we thought just to chop it off and it, what it does is it makes the wing more E. So this is a 7 99 wing. It actually behaves like a slightly wider wing. It's almost got that Phantom tip on there, still this but you don't have the drag of that.

Yeah. It's interesting. It's also better if you hit the bottom  yeah, it's better if you stick it into yourself, it's not quite so gnarly. That's true too. Yeah. Okay. Here I have another question. Can us older 55 year old guys go as fast as the young guns for that one? I would say watched last, the last interview with Alan Cade on Mau he's yeah, he's 60 and he just beat everyone in the race, including yeah.

Guys like Kilen and stuff. So definitely you can still go fast at any age, I would say. Yep. And then can the HPS wing be pushed as hard? Go as fast as a R T wings, if they are similar sides. Not really, they have more cord, so they're never gonna go fast as an a R T I think I describe wings a little bit differently.

Like I'd ID, I'd primarily look at the span. That's the most important thing to me. And then I said after that, the mean average cord, and then I'd analyze the foil section that was used, how much can it's got. And then after that I might go to the color of the. Whether it's blue or red or black or carbon or whatever.

And then after that, I might consider area. So I guess what I'm saying is area is something that I just don't even take any notice of whatsoever. I might look at volume before I look at area. A lot of wings are described by area, which, is a bit of a nonsense to me. The span is the most important thing.

And as, as kind of proof of that the BSC eight 90 and the nine 80, sorry, the nine trying to think of three wings that are about the same span in our range. They all get going at about the same speed, but the narrow. It just goes faster. It's got less drag and it runs faster, slightly different trick to get it up and going.

But it's really a trick rather than one doesn't go on lighter winds. You can still get them the high aspect wings up that you just have to have a slightly different technique to get them up. Yeah. I've noticed that too. Okay. Span, span. Span is the most important number. And if you're comparing wings span, and then mean average cord, and that tells you more than anything, about a wing.

Okay. Actually you have follow up question would be, so what's coming next. You said you were working on pro new prototypes where you are working on that twist and are they even more high aspect than the a R T range or. Yeah we've done a lot of different stuff and we've got some stuff that's, good genuine advances at the moment.

We still feel like we're making big gains. So we're just keeping on going with it. What about building flex into the wing tips of the front wing? Cuz you were saying that, we established that probably in a mass. You want it to be as rigid as possible and the kind of the connection between the mass and the fuselage and the board and everything you want super rigid.

But what about having a little bit of twisting in the wing itself? With the high aspect wings, you get a bit of that anyway. Is it good or bad? It's more complicated than that. Like we, we built the same wing. I'm trying to think of a word. We had a test wing. It was quite high aspect.

It was that one I was talking about before it was 13.4 aspect ratio. We built that in a bunch of different constructions. We did one in solid carbon. We did one in normal carbon and we did one in high ulous carbon and we rode all three wings. And at that aspect ratio the normal carbon wings, it was just a little bit too soft.

And what it felt like was when you're going along, if you went over a you could feel every bump in the water, it was very sensitive. Relatively flat water day, but when you're going through the chop, you could feel the wing, bending like this. And if you went through someone's wake, just about threw you off, you could really feel everything.

Cause it was just moving. The solid carbon one was quite a bit stiffer quite a nice flex characteristic to it, even though it was solid. And then the one that was out of high medulous, that was the stiffest of the lot. And that one felt like you could drive it and rely on it. And it felt really good, but I'm with you, I think that as we get into these more high aspect wings, being able to twist off on the tip, like a be active, like a windsurf sale might be beneficial.

There's lots to learn this. You asked before, we getting to the point where we're not learning no, every day we are trying something, it's fantastic to actually discover what's next and. Yeah, actually, I was just thinking about like earlier mentioned helicopter blade. So I guess in a, on a helicopter blade, the angle of attack on the inside or the closest to the helicopter is really steep and thicker profile.

And then as you go towards the tip, it flattens out and has a thinner profile. But that part of that is just cuz the outside travels faster than the inside, way faster, much faster. And on a foil, that's not really the case. But is it, or is there like a reason why it works that way, that you wanna have a flatter, have a steeper angle of attack in the middle and less at the end or, what's the reasoning for that?

That relates back to the twist that the wash out and the wingtip that we, we have in there before. And we've experimented with that quite a bit too. And yeah. We had some early w where that twist in the wingtip, we went right up to eight degrees. Of twist in it, it was really twisted and we've had some, all the way to zero and everywhere in between.

And, we've said all on what we've said on for the a R T and that works really nicely, but it was surprising even one degree of difference. It made a complete difference to how the wing works. So tuning that in is a big part of getting the wing, and every time you do a different wing, a more high aspect wing, a shorter wing, the amount of twist that's required or is actually beneficial, is different.

The same rules don't apply for every wing. So it's interesting. Yeah. That's something that I'm sure that there's a lot of room for improvement there. We've got into a lot lately is doing a computer analysis of the wings so we can design a wing and then we can run an analysis on it and then put it on a graph and the graph will give you where it takes off and how much drag it has at every speed that it's going at.

So you get like a, a graph, a takeoff point, and then soon it's taken off the drag will drop down and you get to a certain speed and then the drag will come back up again. But if you put one wing. We can compare. So you've got the, if we had three wings, the same span, the BSC versus the HPS versus the OT, we can plot the three graphs on top of each other.

And the BSC is a very even hammock shaped graph. The, it, it takes off and then the drag drops down and then it comes back up again. The a R T or even some of the prototypes we've had that are even more extreme. They take off and then the drag just drops almost vertically and it stays very level for a very low, long time.

And then it starts coming back up again. But I guess what I'm getting at is we can at least we'd have a wider sweet spot than for the, that where they're comfortable the, and the flat line at the bottom there. What that is glide. That's your magic glide kind, where it just keeps running without wanting to slow down.

Yeah. Interesting. And, but basically we can, we used to, when we built a wing, we would because the wings, the relatively high aspect now, and we talked about G 10 before G ten's kind of, of limited use to actually prototype a front wing, cuz it's just not the same flex. So it's not gonna give you the same result.

So you can't really test in G 10. So to build a wing, you really need to build a mold. So it's a tooling, steel mold, and you have to. Press a wing in there, the construction of that wing, what you layer it up is and how you build it and everything that, that changes as well. So you've gotta do a bunch of wings in that to, to get that.

And then we test that and work out where we're going with it from there. And there's, and every time you build a steel mode, it's a huge investment, right? So there's a cost, but more importantly, for me, there's a delay, it takes two or three weeks to build that mold. Yeah. And then it takes a week or two to build a prototype and a week or two with COVID at least a week or two to actually get the things shipped to you.

So there's perhaps six weeks lag from actually sending a finished idea off to actually getting it so we can test it. And then, maybe you don't have wind or anything suitable, test it for a week or so. So it's frustratingly slow and you can only step forward when you've learned what you can learn, but doing the analysis stuff, we can do a new wing and run the analytics on it and get a result.

And go through and say, oh yeah, that's what it's gonna do. When we first did it, we actually retrospectively did the analysis on all of the wings that we'd already built. And when I looked at it, I and thought what's the point of that? It's not telling me anything. I knew all of that. And then I thought that's actually the point of it.

It confirms what we felt in our testing with those wings is proved in the, in, in the analysis. So then we could start actually building new wings and every half an hour, we can build a new wing. We can run the, a analytics on it, get the graphs on it and see whether it's a gain or not. We don't have to wait six weeks.

We can do it again. And again it's almost as, almost more exciting and you don't need to get wet or wait for. that's been a huge leap forward to working out what to do. Next. Another question from a customer here is What are your general thoughts on mixing and matching foils between brands in essence, using adapters, such as alchemy.

Cedris no limits. What are your feelings on that as a brand or as a manufacturer? Okay. So I'll answer that by going back to, to, to this new mask that I was telling you about before and before we were talking about the base of the mask through here, it's really important. The fibers run all the way through, through there, cuz this is really important for stiffness, right?

The part that's really important is the here and the fibers from this there's. How many layers got a 56 layers of carbon through there and they run all the way to the bottom of here. So you are not relying on the screws at all the screws, hold the mast on there, but you're actually relying on 56 layers of carbon.

Anything that you've got with an, a mask from another company when you're just bolting an adapter on there. Most of the time you're relying on two inmate bolts that is not suitable to attach your foil to it. Some of the early foiling companies they did that. They actually had the mask coming down.

They had their fuselage and it was just a couple of bolts on, yeah. I remember the old Slingshot ones. There were just sitting flat. The mass was sitting flat on the fuselage  and just bend the screws would just bend over. There is too much stress for inate screws. I guess the point of that is that, it's all very well to build a stiff mask, but if you can't attach it as strong as that to anything else, then it's not gonna work.

It's just not gonna work. Okay. Next question. What is the best jumping wing combo? So like which wing do you recommend for jumping. Probably the 8 99 that you've got, cuz it's fast. And it gets a really clean takeoff. Yeah. It gets a nice pop. Yeah. Yeah. One thing I noticed too with the shorter fuselage and I guess the smaller tail wing too, and maybe because the front Wing's closer to the mass, like all those things combined to a much more twitchy feel or like much more sensitive it's return, but also easier.

It's but it's also more sensitive. If you wanna adjust it, you have to be much more careful it's easy to over adjust. If you come too low and you try to push up all of a sudden you're breaching, it's like very, more, it reacts much quicker than than my other setup was.

But I guess for jumping, it's good because you want that thing to go up straight up. You can tune that out quite easily, just by putting a slightly bigger rear on there. Your front wing is the one that you're writing. And then your fuselages the mounting point for your rear wing and your rear wing is your stabilizer.

The size of that stabilizer and the length of the fuselage is to do with the feel that you want. If you have a longer fuselage it's gotta get a longer lever arm and the rearing becomes more effective. And a bigger rear wing also becomes more effective. So if you're finding it too twitchy just a slightly bigger wing.

So if you're on the 3, 2, 5, just go for the three 50 or the 3 75. Okay. You might only ride that for a couple of three weeks and then go, oh, missed it two times. That's what I've only tried it twice. So I think it was part of in my second session, I was already much more comfortable on it.

So it's just what I'm used to, so I have to just adjust to that. I think. We've had a weird thing too. And that is that for a lot of our team writers, we test, but they were like 95 kg right through to 65 kg. And they were all, every single one of them, they were using the 3 25 progressive as the rear win of choice.

And, I was generally writing the 3 75 and that felt pretty good to me. And I was balanced on that. And so we built a 300 progressive thinking that, maybe a couple of 'em are light enough, freaky enough to actually hop on that and enjoy it. And they all hopped on it and said, yep, miles better than the 3 25.

We don't wanna use the 3 25 anymore and all riding that smallest 300. And it just seemed crazy to me like the three hundred's, a tiny little wing. So I've started using it a bit myself just to see, and it is Twitch. But you ride it for a day and you get used to it and that's smaller rear.

It does allow you to ride your front wing more freely. Like it turns better. Quicker is more responsive. It actually removes a lot of drag. I was blown away. How changing to a smaller rear wing, how much difference it made to the speed? There's a guy here that GPSs everything he does and he was riding a 400 progressive and he swapped out for one of the three 80 speed wings and he did two, two kilometers an hour faster, straight away.

And his average speed was up by three. And I, I couldn't believe that, The changing a rear wing could make that much difference to your speed. I would've thought you'd have to do an awful lot to your front wing to gain that many kilometers an hour speed. So the rear wing does add a lot of drag.

Yeah. And it plays a really important role. I've noticed that too. So another question, will you develop any more foils for the red fuselage? Yep. We've got one here. So the difference between the red fuse large and the black Fs ice, the red Fage was developed when the foils were really thick.

And it, it's quite a thick front end on it. It, and it really suits wings that are over 180 millimeters cord. But then as wings have evolved and got narrower and narrower the black fuse lash is, the one of choice for the smaller wind. There'll come at time.

If we carry on going smaller and smaller wind, that's gonna be a bit of a work of art to make it fit on there, but here's a new wing. And I think this is coming out by the time you when's the video coming out.  probably the Saturday, like in the few days what is that? The. Say 18th or 19th? Three, yep. Sure. Now I'm not sure the exact date. This is a, this a new it's a pump and glide wind, and it's bigger. It's the 13, 10. So it's a biggest span than anything we've ever done before. But it's it's also quite a bit of area. Like it doesn't really compare to the 1300 or the 1150 or anything really.

It's very good for pump. This is the one that Hugo wiggles worth pumped over 17 minutes on flat water. Just yeah. Okay so the answer is yes, you are still coming out with more wings for the red Fage. But basically they're made for the cords wider cords and thicker foils, right?

Yeah. Makes sense. Yep. Got, you've got a different bolt pattern obviously on there and that makes  a big difference to what wing, if you're going for bigger wings, you need that this bigger wing here that I've just shown you too. The other thing I should mention with that is why that took so long to come out with is that we needed the stiffer high medulous mask.

You, it just doesn't really feel good on aluminum master it's too wobbly. So it's a step by step thing. Having this new stiffer mask has allowed us to go for even bigger span wings and even, there's a whole lot more control in that allows us to carry on developing , which is why I think that new mask is so exciting.

Yeah, I definitely wanna try one of those and I'll probably post a video on that once I get to try it and compare it to my aluminum mass. Another question here, what are the speed limiting factors? Basically when you're winging is it the hand wing drag or foil drag or I guess a lot of people are getting into racing and wanting to go faster that, so what are the limiting speed limiting factors just drag and that can come in various forms for racing.

It depends on the racing you want to do. A lot of racing is Windward LUS. So you're racing up wind and then going back downward again and to get to Windwood, you actually need span and quite narrow chords. So some of our quite high aspect wings work very well for that. Some of those new ones that I've been playing with.

I've got my favorite wings that I've been using. I'm finding those are starting to be a little bit too deeper draft. And as you're going up, when you're starting to see them start to, to back wind and laugh and the wings are going to need to evolve. And with that in mind when we were building wind surface a million years ago, we, there was rig development, there was board development and there was fin development and three separate developments.

And when, you got stuck and that's, as far as you could go, but then when a rig developed to go faster, suddenly you could change the board and then you could change the fin and then you can change the Rigg. All of these parts need to work together to go faster and, similar for winging, as we evolve faster foils, there'll be faster handing and, that'll all allow us access to more speed.

Okay. So I have a question for you. There's a lot of it seems like a lot of talk going on right now about what's better for. For wing foiling. Is it like in the tail of the board? Should, is it better to have a flat tail that kind of planes earlier? Or do you want that little kick in the tail to help you avoid touching the water and so on?

Like what's your take and what are your board, what do you use on your boards? Mostly? I think you've got one, my board the, we used to have a kick in the tail and that was more fors foiling and, bigger cord wings. And as you paddled to take off those wings needed angle of attack.

So you needed to roll back. Yes. The wing to pop out and the chisel on the tail allowed you to do that and popped up cleanly with the modern wings we've got. Now they're very high aspect and very fast. And you mentioned before that, if you try and take off too slow, they just go up and down and crash and whatever they don't work, but you need to be out, have a bit more speed.

So just a simple flat and the back of our board, it's very uncomplicated looking, there's no channels or anything like that. And you've just got to, generate some speed to get going. I don't believe in all of the cutout mess in there cuz I, I, you're not actually.

You're not really getting to planning speeds. You've just gotta generate a bit more speed to pop up on the wing. So you just it's about eliminating drag at lower speeds, right? You're not really trying to reduce drag at planning speed so much. Okay. So yeah, just very simple flat tail flat and it's relatively wide.

It's got quite a big span back here. So it's got a reasonable area here for you to pump off. And what about the front of the board? Do you have a conve or is it more convex? What conve they give you to catch on and they give you a bit of steering. So in a, they were actually quite useful in a sub foiling situation.

When you're paddling for a wave, it actually gives you some direction through here. But you don't need that with winging. And the board is just flat across there with a bevel on the rail. So it doesn't catch. And when it comes down and touches, it just bounces straight back up again. Whereas if you have a concave, it catches and grabs and then bring back up.

Yeah. Sometimes it has a little bit breaking it. It feels like it'ss gets stuck on the water, the con cave iPhone on my board. Yeah. I'll just do it. I'll just do it flat and it works fine. Okay. Thanks so much for your time. Just to wrap it up, do you have any any wisdom that you can share on just living a good life or what is things you do to stay stay healthy, happy mentally and physically, or any kind of.

Not really. During the whole COVID New Zealand had a horrendous lockdown compared to the rest of the world. And there was times when we weren't allowed to go on the water, which made no sense to me, I'm a water person and being able to go out in the water fishing and see the dolphins and whales and sharks and stuff that are out there, or to go out foiling and have fun, that, that makes me happy.

And, you've gotta be able to do that, I think. Yeah, for sure. That's always a good way to turn off from your regular life and get on the water and enjoy the, your nature. Yep. Very good. All right. Anything else you wanna share with the wink fo community out there?

Lots more to come and can't wait to get into it.  yeah. Excellent. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Keep putting out. It's really impressive how many foils you've designed and it sounds like you're not nearly done yet, so  keep  carry on with that. Some people say it's too complicated or something, but like really, we've got the SES package for full on beginners and it's just, you wait eight, over 80 kg under 80 kg.

And then as you get more into it, it veers off on all sorts of different directions. It's not like you need to have every single foil that we build. It's more catering for all of those various directions you might want to go in. And that's just, we like to explore and find what we can get in the extremes of all of that.

So the range is quite big, but it's relatively simple as well. Excellent. Once you understand it. Yeah. Okay, Adrian, I really appreciate your time. And  we'll, I'll probably check back with you again in, in six months or a year, and then we'll catch up on what's new. Yep. Looking forward to having going your wings sometime too.

All right. Yeah. When I'm back, hopefully I'll be back in New Zealand sometime and yeah. Then we can talk about the wing too. Cause Dan sent you one of our wings, but you haven't had a chance to try yet. No. Looking forward to having you go. Sounds great. All right. Thank you. Aha. Robert, thank you. All right.

All right. You're still here. Thank you so much for sticking around to the very end. I hope you enjoyed as much as I. The next interview is gonna be with Clifford from uni foil. So another really great foil designer I'm gonna get into more detail on foil design, ask all the questions about what's new what's coming and so much exciting stuff going on in the world of foiling.

So many improvements and better and better performance that we can get from the foils. So it's a really exciting time to be a Forer. And I just wanted to say thank you to all our customers at blue planet serve you, make it possible for us to put together this show. And if you're not already a customer, please consider us next time when you're buying full equipment blue planet surf.com or visit our shop in Honolulu or in Hava on Oahu.

So thanks again for watching. Please remember to give it a thumbs up, make sure to subscribe to the blue planet surf YouTube channel, and we'll see you on the water. Aloha

Alan Cadiz Wing Foil Interview #2- Blue Planet Show Season 2 Episode 18

Aloha friends, it's Robert Stehlik, welcome to season two of the Blue Planet Show.  On this show, I interview wing foil enthusiasts, athletes, designers, thought leaders, and go into great detail on technique, equipment, but also tried to find out a little bit more about the person, what inspires them, and how they live their best life.

You can watch it right here on YouTube. For those of you who are visual learners like myself, that's really helpful to have that visual content. But of course you can also listen to it as a podcast on your favorite podcast app. Just look for the blue planet show. In this interview with Alan Cadiz is we start with very basic beginner tips, the top five tips for beginners, and then we get into a much more advanced stuff as well.

So there's something here for everybody. And we also talk about equipment, including what Alan used in the recent wing foil race on Maui that he actually won against other wingers that were less than a third of his age. So a nice work Alan, on that. I really hope you enjoy this interview. If you do, please remember to give it a thumbs up here on YouTube and subscribe to the blueplanetsurf YouTube channel. And without further ado here is Alan Cadiz:

Allen, welcome to the Blue Planet Show! Actually, welcome back to the blue planet show. Thank you for inviting me back. Yeah, so we, we had a great interview last year and there was one of them actually, it was the most popular video on the Bhutanese show with almost 40,000 views on YouTube and then a lot of listens on the podcast as well.

You always have great information. People love to hear about it. So that's great to have you back on the show and just wanted to catch up and see what happened over the last year. So what's new or what's the latest and greatest that's going on Maui? It's during the last year, it's just been more, more winging.

We've had consistent wind all year on winging is growing in popularity on, it's still been quiet, with COVID winding down. It's not as many people as in the past, but we just had our first competitive event in three years. And what else is new? That's cool. Yeah. We're going to get into that more later that definitely hear about that Patagonia, kite and wing festival, but to get started like last year, I'm usually asked all the more advanced questions first that I was interested in.

Hearing about, and then at the end I asked the guests to talk a little bit about beginner tips, but I want to turn it around the other way, start with the beginner stuff and then work up to more advanced things. Cause I figured that most people that are really into winging are gonna watch till the end or listened to the end and the beginners, we got to get them into it right in the beginning.

So I asked you to come up with your top five tips for beginners to get into wink foiling. And you not only prepared some answers, but you've made a little video from what I understand. So let's start with that. What are your top five tips for beginners? All right. Thank you. Yeah. So I was thinking about those tips and there's so many different things.

But I've tried to think about the key things and I put together a little timeline video here. Tip number one. And I just pulled these clips out of my inventory of clips and start on a big board. Now this is a winter Ford. We have a surplus of wind surfboards here on Maui on you can, you might think a sup board would be a good substitute, but you really need the daggerboard unless you can put strap-on fins on your support.

I don't recommend using the support. It really needs to have something with the daggerboard now. And I recommend this for people who are just learning, how to use the wing, just to learn the basics on you can learn on a set board a foil board, but I recommend a large foil board to start with.

Here, I've got Frank my, my pay here. He's a very skilled. And using a smaller board. It's challenging. So as a beginner, if you're on a smaller board, it's pretty tough to get going. And, in the extreme case, a really small board, it has its advantages, but it's tough to get up on the smaller boards and this is goes through the whole spectrum.

So as a beginner, you really want to have a floaty board is just more challenging to get up. There are advantages to the tiny board once you're up. But in the learning stages, you really want to have a floating board. Yeah, I totally agree with that. So that's tip number one. So not everyone has access to the big boards on and.

It doesn't because the learning curve is so fast. It doesn't always make sense to buy a big board. Maybe for some, they've got a big family or they've got a slow learning curve or they're sailing in light wind, but if they have the option to rent on, I would encourage that for the first, a few runs on a mistake that a lot of people make is they'll run out and buy the board that they think they're going to end up on, maybe an 80, 80 liter board.

And it's a real struggle to learn on those smaller boards. You can do it, but it just takes a lot longer. So if you have access to a bigger board take advantage of. Yeah, very good. And then I just wanted to mention too, for people that have an old standard board or something, a big floaty signup board, there is a kind of a stick-on center thin daggerboard available from Slingshot.

I believe that you can basically glue onto the bottom of your board and make if your board doesn't have a dagger board. And that makes a big difference because it keeps the board from this going downwind. If you only have the fins on the tail, the boards is going to turn down when, and it's going to be very hard to stay cross winds.

I've seen people show up at the beach with the sup board and have that problem where they just go straight down wind. So yeah, that's basically I as tip number one, before you try this foil, learn the wing handling with a regular board that doesn't have a foil on it, basically. Yes. And if you don't have access to that, you can, learn on a foil board, but really get your hands on the biggest foil board you can get.

Yeah. And I, I don't know if this is another tip you had to, but I'm also practice as much as you can on the beach before you get it on the water. The wing handling a lot of it. You can practice on the beach before, before you're in the water. Yes, I do have that. I think it's tip number four or five.

Okay. So tip number two, you want to learn how to steer the board and turn around? Very close to the beach specifically, learn to turn around before you get out there on, so this is my daughter she's she has an interesting technique. She'll kneel down at the end of her run, do the turn on her knees. So she doesn't fall.

And then stand back up. But the point is that you're turning around close to the beach. And when I say close, 20 feet out, get on the board and turn the board around 180 degrees to come back in. You don't want to get a hundred yards off shore and realize you can't turn around. Now I can keep going or I can keep going, or we can discuss that idea.

Yeah. I think that's a really good tip. I guess a lot, I know I've heard of people, like they were so excited about getting up on foil and be able to go there. They just kept going as long as they could before they fell in. But then when they got way outside, like in Hawaii, Kai, for example you realize, oh, I don't know how to go the other way.

Yeah. And why Kai is slightly off shore. If I remember. So maybe that's a tip in itself, you want to go in a place where it's side shore, if it's off shore wind, make sure you're sailing with a partner to keep an eye on you. Yeah. And then I'll also, it's a good idea to just if you have a place where you can just go down when, and maybe park your car at the other end, then don't have to worry about staying up when in the beginning.

Yes. This next clip is all about staying up wind. And this is something that when I'm teaching my students, I try to focus on getting them to go up wind for a number of reasons. And the biggest reason is that you're not downwind. You don't have to walk back up or find transportation. You spend your time sailing back and forth instead of walking back up.

So this next clip here is a little bit longer. It's actually a section of a video that I call maximum performance. This is the tip for beginners on turning the board up when, and this is one of my edited videos on, so I'll go ahead and play the whole thing. It's about two or three minutes, and then we can stop and talk about it.

Okay. Great. One of the things I want to cover with quickly, this is more of at the novice level. And this is for almost the first time wingers. It's really easy to go down, wind and end up down wind very quickly. What I want you to try and do is turn the board into the wind.

This does two things. One is it gets you going up wind. So you're not losing as much ground. And it slows the board.

The struck is like a wind sock or a weather vane. It wants to point the wing into the wind. You can use this constant to leverage the board upwind or downwind by pointing the clue towards the back or front of the board. Respect. So we call the back of the struck clue or back end of the wing. And if I point that wing pointed down wind, it's going to point the board down wind.

So I want to point the struck behind or in this case to my left, the more I aim it to the left I'm pulling here. The more it turns into the wind.

If I push it away, it turns down with this is done while luffing the wing overhead and steering the board through your core.

If you come from a windsurfing background, you'll recognize this as similar to wind surfing in that if you drag the clue towards the tail of the board will turn up.

When you twist the wing toward the tail of the board, the wing wants to return to pointing into the wind and as it does it torques your body and board up wind. However, if you sheet in while pulling the clue back, the sheeting will overpower the steering effectively canceling the wings, torque to turn the board up wind, I'll say it again.

Over sheeting cancels, the upwind effort, move your hands forward or sheet out as you twist the clue towards the back of the.

You're going down when

you need the sheet, it out, turn it up when, and then start

simply stated left the wing. As you twist the wing to torque the board up wind.

I actually really like how you explain what the weather vain and that, when you pull it the. The strike wants to point straight down downwind. And then if you manipulate that'll give you a steering momentum. So I've never really heard it explained that way, but it like intuitively we know how it works, but it's hard to explain it to someone who doesn't understand that concept.

So I think that's a really good way to explain it. Thank you. I've been trying all different ideas, one way to think of the strep as a rudder or a guide. And you're aiming that guide to torque the board on a bunch of different ways to show it. And I even, I look at this and I'm like, oh, I might've might do that a little bit differently next time or try to explain it differently, which is I try to attack the idea from a different angle and try different ways.

And on teaching this to my students early on, I couldn't understand why they were going down when, what was causing it to go down when, and even myself, I couldn't understand what was the technique to get it, to turn up, wind on until I started well, trying to solve the problems at night, going to bed at night, thinking that why were they having trouble?

Why can't they do that? Yeah, I've been trying to capture it on video. Nice. Yeah. Okay, cool. I think we're ready for the next tip. Yeah. Okay. The next tip is more or less where you're standing on the board. So food placement on the board let's start with being off foil. So when you're slogging out to the wind line your front foot should be slightly on the Windward side and your back foot on the more or less on the stringer, as opposed to being this orientation.

This is going to actually set you up to point further down. Or that is it's harder to go up wind in this position than this position. Now, the next thing to determine is where to stand on the board regarding the board's flotation. So you may be comfortable standing in the front, but if the nose of the board is curling, you need to move back.

On the other hand, if the tail is sinking, you need to move forward. Again, this is off foil. And once you find that flotation point, you want to adjust your foil so that you stay in this position, as it comes up on foil, you can't be stepping forward as it transitions to on foil. So you want to have your feet in the spot when it foils.

Okay. One thing that I've done in the past with some of my boards is I've marked on the board. Some lines just as a reference for. So I have an idea of where to stand before foils. Ideally you want to be comfortably on the flotation, but when it foils, you want to make sure that your foil is matched with that flotation point and having marks on the board, just give you a better idea of where to place your feet.

Yeah, exactly. And if the D or does design well and you and your files in the right place, basically where you stand to float in the center of flotation, that should also be more or less where you want to stand once the board lifts up, right? Yes. Yes. You can put the foil too far forward in the track or too far back, or if you have a foil with a lot of lift in it on, you may have to adjust that, but.

Yeah and then another good point you add it. And then in a different video with the was being centered over the center line of the board to cause you might be able to fly on when the boards on the water, if you're not exactly in the center, it's fine. But once the board lifts up and you're on foil, you have to be centered exactly over the foil the center line of the board.

And that's the next clip here staying centered. I do have in this shot here, you think more of front and back where you're pressuring the nose down and you're kicking it up, but there's also the side to side. So that's this next clip here. Okay. We'll just play that whole thing.

Okay. Some people are afraid to learn to foil for fear of falling on the foil, a legitimate concern. So let's look at what causes this type of.

So let's look at the foil. It generates lift. The front wing is lifting up the back wing. The stabilizer is pushing down, but together there's force up through the mast lifting the board. Now it's important that you trim your weight for, and AFT. If it's too far in the front, you're going to stick to the water.

If it's too far in the back, you're going to overflow. So you're constantly trimming the weight and a half, but it's also equally important to keep your center of mass directly over the foil. So the foil is lifting up. Gravity is pushing you down and if they're equal, you stay centered over the board. But often as a sailor, you have another force that the sail is pulling you laterally.

So you need to compensate by leaning back against that pole. And when the. It's flat on the water. You have the stability of the ocean. So you can put lateral push on the side of the board, but as soon as it comes up on foil, you don't have that stability and any sideways push is going to cause it to in this case flip away and you fall towards the foil on your bum.

And here's a couple examples,

unlike windsurfing, where you're pointing your toes to keep the board flat in foiling, you're flexing your foot to keep your ankles at a right angle to the board, or that is your body. Mass is always over the top of the board. And the top means at a right angle.

I have this drone footage, which really shows it, centered right over the top of the board, even though he's hiked out he's on. And then here, if you draw a line from the mast up through his center of mass, you can really see it here.

So if you're not centered and I've got one more clip here of not being centered and you can see it right there. It's the beginning of the. Yeah, that's a really good point then. And I always like to tell people too, when they, before they try to wing and foil together, maybe just try to learn how to control the foil first.

I guess even going behind a boat though is sometimes you got to pull from the rope, so you can lean against the rope. So you can be a little bit off centered on, on, on the floor away from the pool of the rope, if you're going sideways. But but just to have that feel where you can, where you're foiling on the board without getting pulled or without pressure, so that you understand that you have to be right over the center line of the foil and you can't be like offset, yeah. Trying to isolate just the foil skills. Th the foil is one way, but the foil is different. The board is pretty heavy, so it's not as responsive. As a regular foil board certainly the prawns surfers that come to wing foiling, they have the skill already going behind a boat on is good.

But I have seen people that have learned behind a boat. And when they're out on the wing board, they're leaning back against the wing, trying to wheelie the board. And I'm like no, you can't leverage, you can't leverage the board like that with the wing, the way you can with the rope. But any foil time that you can get before you get on a wing is good.

Yeah, I agree. So the next clip here is about wing handling. And that is we talked about it earlier about practicing on the beach and here's just a few things on. A few things you can practice on the beach, simple stuff like flipping the wing over. And this is a six meter when I'm trying to flip a six meter wing over in the water is pretty tough.

So you can practice it on the beach. You can practice standing up, having the wing help you get to your feet. And the wingspan on a six meter, you have to go up to the wing tip to flip it over. So it looks easy and it's relatively easy on the beach. It's harder in the water, but that's something you can practice.

And just practicing, like for tacking or jiving, just practicing the hand movements of flipping the wing over on, just leaning back against the wind and the wind. And this is something you have to do where there's a breeze. You can't do it in your backyard where the winds all squirt. You really need to have steady wind to get steady feedback, but this is worth doing, taking the time.

And that there's in most of my instructional videos, I've got some kind of beach homework where you practice on the beach, whether it's the Heineken jibe or tacking or whatever. Yeah, no, that's really good advice. I think in a lot of times the beginners too, don't if you don't have a wig like a cutting or windsurfing or a sailing background just beginners have a hard time understanding exactly where the wind is coming from and how to angle your wing and relation to the wind and which way you want to go in and out, what's what direction can you go?

And what does. You can't, you can't go straight into the wind obviously, and things like that, that's things people don't understand at first, I think, or don't think about really. So just learning that. And then also I like to get people to just keep the wing tip, kinda get the wink to blow to the sand, but without touching it, like controlling the height of the wing on the beach, and that, that's something that, that I'm in.

I've got videos on that and all the clips here, this is just a fraction of the stuff that I have. And there's so much more there's so many more tips and these, I wouldn't call these the top five tips. These are just five tips in general on, and I also, the sport's still relatively young and we may look back in a few years and think, oh, we were teaching that progression where it's so much better to teach this progression.

There's still so much we're learning about the sport. Yeah there's there's definitely the idea of sheeting and steering the wing on, I've taken a couple stabs at explaining that in one video, I have one video up there already on what I'm going to. I have another video where I'm trying to explain it more clearly to sailors or non sailors, and just the idea of sheeting in and out to catch the wind and spill it.

That's relatively easy. But when you throw in the steering of the wing up and down in front of you, like you said, having the wing tip right on the sand and taking it above your head and separating those two skills it's a challenge to get people to understand that. It's really simple once you get it, but it's sometimes difficult.

Yeah, you have to grasp that concept first and the I, and I like to even the more advanced maneuvers and all the different tax and things like that on your patron channel, you have like really detailed info videos breaking it down. Step-by-step into really easy to follow steps that very detailed and, I highly recommend that your instructional videos are great, and I think, those beginner tips are great, not just for the beginners, but also for more advanced guys.

Cause you're going to have to show other help, other people that are learning and just understanding how to explain things like how to steer the board up into the wind. Th those are kinds of things. If you have a good way to explain it and to make it easy to understand that'll help a lot.

Yes. Yeah, that's good. My following on Patrion has grown almost a 700 at the moment, or just over seven to 700 at the moment. And the range of skills on, there's beginners on there that are just trying to get up for the first time. And then there's advanced sailors that are asking for jumping and more advanced stuff.

This recent video, the one you're looking at gliding on foil, that's more for entry-level. It's gliding is a skill that you take for granted, it's really easy to do once you know how to do it. But I had a number of students recently that I could see, they were relying on the wind for support and they didn't have the feel for gliding.

Yeah okay. So yeah, I just find it too. I'm just, screen-sharing this now you're at your patron channel and yeah, it's 747 patrons. That's great. Congratulations on that. So it's actually I guess if you get enough people supporting you, then it's actually, you can actually make a living, being a virtual instructor, basically.

Just making the instructional videos and teaching. Yeah, I so that, that seems like it really good business model for you, huh? I fell into it, with COVID when they shut down all the restaurants and airplanes and they closed the beach parks. That's when I started doing this and someone suggested I do a premium online video here on Patrion.

And so I've been doing that for the last almost two years now. I think there's 20, 22 or 24 videos, instructional videos ranging from. The first time holding the wing to more advanced stuff like three sixties and Heineken jibes and that kind of stuff. Heineken jibes and the three sixties.

That's probably the top 10% of wingers out there. I think the majority of wingers are working on basic stuff like this jibe here, that's George, one of our local sailors. This came to wild, demonstrating how to glide on the swell on. So this is a clip from the wave video on. So there's all different skill levels here and I've tried to try to address all of them.

Yeah. I like how you explain how to I guess that's a challenging thing at first for people that are used to just always having the wing powered up and leaning against the wind. That to transition into not using the wing and deciding on the foil without using the wing wind power.

So that's what you explaining it and just doing it kind of real step-by-step slowly getting used to this using the energy from the foil without having the wing pull you along. Yes. And if you come from a prone foiling background, you already know how to do this automatic.

But for the prone boilers, I've got tips on how to use the wing. Yeah. That makes sense. And I think this is a really important skill for jiving because basically when you're going into the jive, you have to de power the wing and just surf a turn on, or, do a turn on the foil without using the wind power basically.

Yes. That was the idea of it. So that angle right there that's, I got this new camera, actually it's not new, but I had to modify it for that board. Yeah. I just wanted to ask you about the the different handles. On the duotone wings, you have the rigid handles.

And then some, you have some that have the longer boom handle, like this one, and then the new D-Lab unit that you're using has two, two separate handles. We'll look a little bit about the handles and yeah the advantages and disadvantages of having rigid handles and two handles versus one long handle and so on.

Coming from a windsurf background, I've always liked the boom. And in fact that the first wings that my neighbor Ken was making all have booms. So we started with boom. I don't know if you remember the first echos on they had a boom and. The nice thing about the boom is it's infinite hand placement.

You can put your hands anywhere along the boom. When you're flipping the wing over your head, it's really easy to feel where the boom is. You don't have to look where the handles are. You shouldn't be looking even if you have handles. And the boom is so much more rigid than the webbing handles. So in fact, most manufacturers now are switching to some kind of rigid handle.

The handles I've gotten used to the handles, but initially when I went from the boom to the handles, I was grabbing in between the handles and missing and falling in. Now I can grab the boom or grab the handles pretty much every time without looking. I know where they are. Some of the bigger wings, the handles are a little further apart.

So I've got to remember to reach further back on. That's one of the things you miss when you have the boom or the two handles. I noticed like when I come out of the jive, I like to grab the wing right in the middle with one hand so that it kind of flies. But it would be right between those two handles.

So do you ever miss having that that grip in the right in the middle or you just get used to? I did get used to it. I did have that problem. I grabbed right in the middle and fall. So it, it took me a while to retrain my hands. I still prefer the boom over the handles, but these, this D-Lab wing is really superior.

This cloth it's super stiff. So the wing is really tight and light. You can see there. It's just, it's really nice. So I'll tolerate the handles to use that wing. And so let's talk about that a little bit, so that new this is the Lula fabric on the new do a tongue D-Lab weighing, and then they also have the unit in with the regular Dacron leading edge and and strike.

So can you talk a little bit about the difference between the two? And I know that there's a big difference in price, so I just wondering what you think they are the different between the difference between the two and if it's worth it for the average user to spend more, to get that well there, the wings are virtually the same shape slash design, just different cloth.

So the yellow cloth, the Lula cloth makes it really stiff and light. So if you're into performance, the Alula is the way to go on the, I think the sizes are from up to seven. Or no two and a half to seven meter, but the Alula the D labs don't start until three five on, but you're really gonna appreciate the Alula cloth in the bigger sizes on, 5, 6, 7 meter that's in the light wind where you want that lightness and stiffness.

Now, as far as the value on, money is different things to, it's a different thing for everybody. For some people money's not an issue, they can get whatever they want. I think as a novice Patty, my wife, her favorite wing is the SLS three, five unit on, I really liked the Fibo D-Lab I think that's what we're looking at here.

Yeah, this is, I think this is the three, five, or the three meter SLS. This is one of her favorite wings, although she recently tried the D lab for, and she said, this is my new favorite wing, and this is my shit. She tried to claim my fluoro. I'll share it with you. That's interesting. Yeah, that you're saying that that yeah.

Makes more of a difference than in a bigger wing on, in lighter wind, obviously. Yeah. Because if you have plenty of wind then I guess actually sometimes having a little bit of weight in the wind can actually be a good thing too, in some cases. It's not always the case that lighter is always better, but definitely in a big wing and light wind, it makes it, it can make a big difference, right?

Yes. Yes. I'm not sure we're heavy is good, but that's true. But my thank you. You're gonna they're all good, but you're gonna appreciate the bigger sizes with the D lab and. As a novice sailor, you'll be fine with the SLS. I think you're going to pay a little extra for that performance in the Alula cloth.

Okay, cool. Let's talk a little bit about that recent event you mentioned earlier, the Patagonia Caden, Wade Fest. You said that was just recently and there was a freestyle part of it and the race part of it. So let's talk a little bit about that event. I did a film, a little bit of the freestyle on, and I can try and share that here.

I was the Patagonia Maui, kite and Wingfield festival was that canal beach park. And when I got my camera out, the battery was flashing almost dead. So I just filmed one year. This is Chris McDonald. He won the event with moves like this he's 16 years old from the Gorge.

That's here's Kailani. He dropped in and he was doing moves. I'm not sure how he finished up. I think he made it to the final. I only filmed one heat. Just this Andre. He's a local ripper. He did pretty well. Wow. And I think also in this heat Otis Buckingham, no, that's Chris again. That's so you can see why he won the event there.

Oh, so there was racing and unfortunately I don't have any video of the race stuff. But you told me earlier that you actually won the race event. So just tell us about it. I did I spent a lot of time training for it and I had some really good gear and one of the guys I sail with all the time, he says, when you're out there, I can see you're sailing with purpose.

You're training for this. And I did. I worked really hard on it and I actually, I'm going to just show a little clip of the board that I used on. So I got this new board flying Dutchman. This is what that camera Mount I'll show you that. And then I posted this on Instagram clip coming up here.

So this flying Dutchman is different from my previous board in that it's a little. Mark made it a little narrower. So I wouldn't drag the rail while I was going to Winward other dimensions, sorry. Or what are the dimensions? Is the board it's four foot 11 by 21 inches wide. And it's about 60 liters, 20 to 60 liters, 2021 wide 2121.

Okay. Pretty narrow four foot 11

engine the board so that when I do touch down, there's more of a planning surface, the rails not digging in and on the back. There's no tail rocker, no tail kick, just a sharp edge. And this really helps to release the board from the water. Now it's also matched with a Mike's lab and I wasn't sure about the Tuttle box, but after trying it in this board, it's super solid.

It's all one piece, no moving parts. There's no play whatsoever. It's just really tight. And then my result in the racing I finished, I actually won the racing event. Excellent. Yeah. Thank you. Then. You're probably not the youngest one in there by far. In fact, you could probably fit a whole generation in between me and the next place.

When I went to the registration up in , it was at a. Mandatory. I went up there and I got in line and everyone in front of me was a teenager and I thought, oh man, what am I doing here? The older guys were in their twenties. Yeah. So one third year age. Yeah. Yeah. But I have to say that the Maui fleet and a wife who, they were a couple of people that came over from wahoo, both the men and women, young men and women, they're going to be a force.

They've got some talent and, they were going plenty fast in the racing, but the start line and the tactics. That's where my experience came in. So tell us how that whole, how it worked at, what was the format like? How did this start work? W were, how were the terms and upwind, downwind, and so on.

Tell us how that format works. They had a rabbit start that is that a jet ski raced across the start line and you'd pass behind the jet ski on and we'd race out. It was a close reach to a mark outside. And then from that mark, we had to go up wind to a Windward mark. So it, the way it was set up, it spread everyone out on and I had some good starts.

And then the upwind leg, it was favored on the inside. It was a little bit north wind. So you'd get a good lift along the shoreline, which I knew from experience where most of the fleet went outside into deeper water where the wind was lighter and there was more current on there were. Some of the kids that Chris McDonald, he was very fast.

He beat me to the Windward mark twice. But I was able to catch him on the downwind run. It was almost a straight downwind run to the finish line. So you had to zigzag your way to get down there. And Kai, I think he was able to pump downwind faster than with the wind, his pumping skills where most other sailors had to zigzag back and forth.

And I was using a six meter. It was light wind by Maui standards on, I was using a six meter. So yeah, I feel pretty good about that when I think it's probably my last competition, I'm passing the Baton onto these younger people. That or I'm anxious to see where they take the sport. And I'm confident in the riders.

We have so much window defending champion. You can't give up after the first time. No. I've yeah. I'm 60 years old Robert it's tough to compete 16. And I remember when I was doing wind surfing competition, when I was 20, I was looking to the guys that were 25 and I thought those guys have peaked.

They've peaked at 25. And for sure, in, in windsurfing jumping freestyle, doing the leaps and having the flexibility, I think you do peak in your early twenties, more endurance style type of stuff on more in your thirties, in your sixties. I'm not sure. I think what I've earned is that shirt that says old guys rule.

I think that's about. Experience too, right? You have, you got the experience and then, like you said, you train with the purpose and you're ready for it. So you're not just winging it, you're actually winging it. Yeah,

yeah. No, it's awesome. I love that. You can still beat everyone, including the guys. I Lenny, that's pretty awesome. No, Chi is, I, he it was funny during the wave event, one of the announcers talked about Chi being a legend. And I thought he's, he is a legend, as far as his ability.

There's no question there, but when I think of legend as an old, if he is a legend, what does that make me? Am I guess I'm a fossil, but no, Kai and all the younger kids, Chi's, he's so good at everything. And he hasn't really put effort into wing racing. And I think if he spends just, a very short period of time, he'll be on the top of his game. It seems like whatever he tries out, he succeeds, but there's a lot of other young talent on Maui.

That, that is really good. And I, we have the amount of advantage in that we have wind almost every day you can wing. And with the waves came to wild is doing some turns in the waves that are really impressive and he's just getting started. So it's going to be really exciting to watch as this younger generation leads the way right.

I'm stepping aside. And then I guess something, I was going to ask you to like, Yeah, generally two foot straps in the front and then not no foot strap in the back, which means basically you're not really jumped. You can't really use that set up to jump or not jump very high anyways.

Yeah. Or do you most, do you just avoid jumping usually or do you actually do jumps with that sort of, I do not do jumps and early on, I made a pledge to myself that I would not take the sport to the air on. I had a back injury surfing, a compressed vertebrae, a wedge vertebrae, and my physical therapist says I can't afford another fall.

So I don't trust myself. I'm looking at these guys do in the jumps, I've studied Chris McDonalds, flips and I'm like, I could do that. I know I could do. But no, I know better. The back there's no back foot strap because I do move my foot around a lot and it does keep me from jumping.

I was just noticing in this picture, the leash, I have it attached to the foot strap because when I have it attached to the back of the board, it would flip and get in the way of the camera. Okay. So I want to show you my, and one of those retracting leashes that like, I should send you one of those, but yeah I noticed actually, why don't you keep that up for a little bit.

I want to talk about the equipment a little bit. Yeah. I noticed you have the leash pug monster on the tail of the board, is that, so it's kinda more out of the way of your feet or less drag or what's the idea behind that? Putting it back there? Oh, sorry. Here. Rapid horse at flying Dutchman suggested I put it back there and it seems like a good spot.

I noticed I do have a prom foil board that I use for surfing. And the Mount is, I don't know if you can see my mouse here, but the amount is right there. And I found as a regular foot surfer as I stand up, my foot would always drag over the leash and I'd end up standing on the leash cord. No, I'm not planning on doing any prone for them with this board, but it made sense on, there was one of the rider that had the same setup and he felt that the leash was dragging in the water.

So I think for racing, especially to have a lease dragging in the water, it just totally doesn't make sense. Yeah. So anyway, but okay so yeah, the two front shots. That way you, the back foot if you just had one center strap you tend to have both feet a little bit off to one rail, right?

So being able to offset your back foot more towards the opposite rail helps with keeping your weight center too. And that's one of the reasons why you don't use the back foot strap to ensure it? Yes, because I would stand on it. And I also found too that sometimes when I would do attack, as I switched my feet, I found myself stepping on the far side of the board to keep it from rolling over from scissoring.

And the other reason as I did, I was using a back strap for awhile and I fell and tweaked my ankle. Didn't injured myself, but tweaked it enough that I thought I'm taking that strap off. And then, it also helps sometimes moving your back foot forward or backwards, depending on how fast you're going or trying to get up and light when and things like that.

Right now. 50, wait a little bit on this board. I don't have the foot straps. Doesn't show the bootstraps here, but the foot straps I have, they're longer foot straps. They're not the standard eight inch they're about 12 or 14 inches on. I placed the inserts further apart so that I could slide my foot forward in when I was going real fast to compensate for the additional lift by the foil and then move it back when I was going to Winward or so I really liked the ability to be able to move my foot four and a half still in the strap.

And I've taken some other videos. I've got a lot of different camera mounts. And in fact, let me pull up one of those camera mounts. Okay. But yeah, actually I did want to ask you about the foil as well. So I noticed you had that a few shots of the foil there too, but yeah, so don't turn off the grease screen sharing yet, but yeah, this particular clip here it doesn't really well, lot of times I'll do different camera angles and trying to capture one thing. And I realize, oh, this is a really good example of where the foot is, or I didn't realize the wing was this way. Or when I put the camera on the front of the board, it really shows my front foot, my toes curling up and down not so much in this video, but I didn't realize how much I was using the front strap to manipulate the board or leverage.

Yeah. I find that, yeah, having footsteps just allows you to turn much harder to you just feel more connected to the board. So you get, you're able to like crank Carter turns that you have that those foot straps, right? Yes. And I did do some video recently, then the board didn't have foot straps and it was a performance oriented board, but I just didn't put the foot straps on there.

And I found that I couldn't do the tax and the jibes as aggressively without the foot strap. So I do definitely pull with my front foot to pull the board around or leverage it this way or so, yeah. Okay. So let's talk about the foil, cause I think maybe the foil might be one of the most important parts of the equipment and like those Mike's labs foil, I know that like Johnny Heineken and San Francisco has been winning a lot of the races there with those foils too.

And it just seems like he's going faster than everyone else. And so anyway, talk a little. Yeah. Mike has been making the carbon foils for the kite racers for quite a while. He's been making foils and more recently for, he's got a reputation of making the fastest foils, particularly in the kite race and fleet.

Now I think he's winging himself and he's made foils for Wayne's specifically for winning. And this is one of them. It's the bullet series. I believe he makes an 1100 and 800 and a 600 and this is the 600. And let me see if I can get a little bit better angle of it on. So it's actually the smallest foil and is in this series.

Yeah. Yes, he does have a smaller foil for kite racing, but it has a shorter fuselage and he's also got a tiny little race foil on, I think it's a four, 10 tow foil. And apparently I think one of the kite racers clocked 46 knots on it. Wow. Yeah, I don't want, I don't want to go that fast. So this the 600 sizes at square centimeters, like projected surface area or something like that, or this is a full-on top performance race, foil.

It's not something that, the average person. Is going to use, it's very sharp edges on it. It's pointy and it's delicate, you bumped the bottom and it you don't want it. You don't want to scratch it, not just because it's expensive, but because the performance of it on, I used the Gulf soils and they're tough.

They're tough on, I scraped the bottom all the time coming in, hitting a rock right in the sand. Sorry. I I just find it to describe it a little bit. For those listening to the podcast sites, it looks like it has a really thin front wing pretty flat with a little curve the tip slightly curved down or straightened out basically with those dihedral man.

And everything's full carbon was the extended finish. And then we'll take it as a really long mass to it. Is that like a hundred centimeters? Something like that? Or how long is it mess? This one is a 96. Okay. They make a 1 0 2 and I believe an 80 something. I tried the 1 0 2 and I could see the advantage of using it on a coast run where you're blistering down wind and tall chop.

You want to be able to clear the wave tops, but still keep your foil under water and going to Winward. I could really lean over, but going just a little bit longer, there was loo tiny bit of wobble in it compared to the 96. And and it, with the total box, it just is really tight. So I think this is the right length mass for me on it is.

It is a little bit long for low tide. It cannot low tide is off limits. Medium, medium tide is okay. And you know you learn where the spots are, where you can go and where you can't. But the medium size is perfect for me. And the leading edge, she slosh and trailing edge is all one piece, which I think is one reason why it's so stiff and so tight.

So the only place that comes apart is like great, right at the the joint between the mass and the fuselage. And then this is all one. This is all one piece construction, all one piece construction. There's two parts. There's the mask and the rest of it. And that you can adjust the pitch and the stabilizer.

He has a system pretty clever. You put a spacer. I used a little nylon while. And you put that spacer in there. And then as you screw the three bolts down tight to the mast, it flexes the fuselage just ever. So a little bit, and that changes the pitch in the back, Wayne. A bigger spacer flexes more and gives it less pitch where it melts stabilizers more pitch.

Interesting. No. So to get us set up like that, like how did you have to like special order and how long does it take and about how much does it cost? If somebody wanted to order one on it? When I originally placed my order on, it was a 12 week wait and they took my order with no deposit. And they said when it was ready, they would send for the check.

And I told them that I was planning on racing in the store. And if I could get it, a week beforehand on that'd be great and we'll, they expedited it, they got it out to me early enough that I could train on it. And but I believe it's a 12 week waiting list, but I also know that they can, you can wait longer on, it was about $3,500 for the whole setup.

That is the foil. I believe that included shipping. And at this point I'm putting it away until I do more testing with Ken and racing with Ken, trying to keep up with Ken winter is pretty tough. He also has a mic slab 800. And that's really why I got this 600 was so that I could keep up with him trying to test the wins.

And of course it's a great race swing, but when I'm pre-writing and teaching I'm using the Gulf war. So I you guys obviously don't want to scrape over the reflux that on low tide or whatever. So like you said, it's Tragile and you don't want to scratch it and ruin the performance. So it makes sense.

But would you say that was one of the, your secret ingredients to winning the race part of it? Yes, for sure. The foil, but also the board. I actually had some great wings to the D labs. And so actually something I wanted to mention too, like for the boards cause, cause it's such a thin profile and I'm assuming that it takes a as a pretty high takeoff speed.

Like you can't like some of the big thick foils you can pop up at pretty low speeds, but this one looks like it would take a little bit higher speeds to pop up on foil. Surprisingly it, it pops right up. Now some of it's, some of it's my experience, but it it was later. During the regatta.

And there are a couple of times when I, during the weekend that I had to pump pretty hard, flapping the wing and pumping the board to get up. But the majority of the time, I it's basically sheet in and go combination of the foil. There's so little drag. It reaches take-off speed very quickly. And that's the total box.

And what about the star speed? Does it like, do you do you ever have a problem, like stalling with it stalling the foil or not really? Not really. That last video that I posted on gliding on foil, pretty much everything I'm riding this foil. It has a very nice glide to it. Sure.

Surprisingly and I was thinking. On the windiest days that I might be able to do a set foil run with this setup. That there's almost enough volume. There is enough volume to float me, to stand still whether or not I could paddle it fast enough with a paddle to get up on foil on. And I've been out outside the reef in the rollers, luffing the wing and gliding for quite a ways on a couple hundred yards and thinking I could do this with a paddle, but once it does slow down, it's pretty tough to get the speed back up again, pumping it with your legs, but I'm pretty certain that 800 would work on a coaster.

So yeah, the dominant paddling is something else I wanted to ask you about too, but let's finish the equipment thing here. Okay. So let's talk a little bit about the wings, the important importance of the wings. We talked a little bit about the board the foot straps, the foil. Obviously the wing is other thing that's really important having the right size wing and then the, and the right profile and shape and all that kind of stuff for upwind downwind.

And talk a little bit about that. Like what you found that is works best for you. With the D labs are pretty tough to beat on, you probably know, or maybe for the people that don't know Ken winner lives across the street, the designer for duotone, he's one of the designers here.

There's a team in Europe that, that works with them as well, but he's the main guy. And I'll go out and race with him. And every now and then I'll throw out my ideas about, what to do. And he quickly shoots them down. So he's really, he does everything on, I'm just a benchmark out there racing with him, but he wants to raise up wind and then turn around and race down land.

And then we swap wings and do it again. And there's another guy that runs with us regularly. Peter slate. He is he's national slalom champion in wind surfing. So he's got some experience in racing and he's the three of us go out there and beat up on each other. But Ken really puts a lot of emphasis on the speed of the wing up wind.

And really when you think about it, if you have a wing that goes fast and is stable, both upwind and downwind, it's going to work on, in every aspect. Being able to get the speed to jump, being able to get on foil quickly on. So he's got all these different parameters and it's amazing to me we'll go out and do a number of runs and he'll decide right away.

Oh, this one needs more, it needs more of this or that. So what determines the up wind speed of a wing, I guess the drag, the depth, the approach as a cider profile, or or more attention, or what are the things that make it work better on up, going up when the stiffness of the frame on the canopy tension, the draft position on the amount of twists or leech tension, all those things on, that's really his wheelhouse.

I don't really try to design or pretend to be a. I think the draft position is really important because if it travels backwards, then it ruins the upwind performance rate. If the draft flexes too much or moves back too much, then that'll ruin the forward propulsion, right?

Yes. Yes. And when we get, he'll get a new wing and it looks really good and we'll go out and test it. And sometimes it's amazing. And then there's a clear, cut difference that it's better or worse. Other times they're very similar, but he seems to know exactly what changes to make.

And the, again yeah, I've been trying to get Ken to come on this show for for over a year. And he's always too busy designing new wings and kites. But he said maybe check back with him and at the end of July. So I'm going to keep trying, I'm going to keep trying to get him on the show.

He's a little bit, he doesn't want to be in the limelight either, so it's very interesting. Definitely trying to get him on the show and then, they just for those who haven't watched, the first interview that we did I just want to do a little recap that you basically grew up in Kailua.

Like I think ki peak Cabrina was one of your neighbors. You learned to win wind surf at a young age and then moved to Mali, started your lesson business. Now, and our teaching, the whinging but w the way he got into wing foiling was basically you were doing downwind, foil, standup, foil, downwinders with mark, Robert Horace and Ken winner.

And then Ken was kinda having a hard time getting up on the foil. So he basically designed this wing to try and you were kinda making fun of him for about it, but then you saw at some point he saw it and you said, it looked like poetry in motion, and you have to try it as well.

Yeah. Yes, that, that image of him coming down, the swells is burned into my brain. That was the turning point. It's okay, I got to try this. And because up until that point, we were set foiling down the coast and we were waiting for Ken to catch up. And in this case, we were sitting there waiting for him to catch up and he came down the swell.

It was just a beautiful thing. So that was when I made the decision to try it. And at that point I think flash Boston had made his own way out of spars. And he went out and did a run on the sup board out and back, got some video and then the wing fell apart. And so the story goes and he never put it back together.

It was a novelty thing, but, and Ken saw that and he said, okay, I'm going to make a wing and try it. So slash Austin was the pioneer, but then can actually develop the first inflatable wing kind of thing. The homework. Yeah. Yeah. And it wasn't so much that I was making fun of him.

It was more of my scratching, my head, what is he doing? But yeah, he's, I think he can be now there's one other guy, Tony Legos that I believe did an inflatable wing. And I think there might be some video of him out there on foil, but he was ahead of his time. It didn't catch on. Okay. Okay.

So basically what I wanted to ask you is I, lately I've been listening because that's how I got into wing filing twos. Like we were doing downwind standup foiling, and like you're on a wall with the wind is not that good usually. So we were struggling with that, trying to like mediocre conditions is so hard to get up on flow and stay up on foil.

So when the wings came out, that was just like, oh, this is so much easier, and more fun because you're always flailing. You don't have to struggle to get back up. And once you come off the foil, but Lately I've been listening to the James Casey podcast. He has like a really good podcast. Now about downwind.

Foiling is really enthusiastic about it, trying to get people into downwind foiling. And I talked to mark Rapa horse in the interview and he said, that's still his biggest passion, even though he doesn't get to do it as much anymore. But I wanted to ask you, do you still do downwind, standup foiling, or did you give up on that since you started winging?

I gave up on it since I started winging and not, I did a run with mark wrap horse and we did it late in the evening. It was really rough and he got ahead of me and I tried really hard to stay with him. And the next morning I, my back hurt so bad. I couldn't walk. So I laid off from it.

But now there's some new boards that are coming out. Dave Kalama he's calls it the Barracuda. That's quite a bit narrower and longer. And it looks like it's relatively easy to get up on foil. And since I laid off the down winning the foils have improved quite a bit and I think they're easier and faster.

So I'm thinking, yes. I want to try it again on, but at the moment I'm still wrapped up in winging. So yeah. Now I'm exactly the same way I got, I stopped doing it once I got into winging, but now I'm going to getting curious and hearing about the new equipment that makes it a little bit easier, like to compare it to what we're using.

Early on, I think might be worth another try on a good day though. I wouldn't want to go out in mediocre conditions if it's the waves or the wind smells nice and clean and easy to get up on them. I definitely going to try it again, but kinda got out of it too, but yeah. Okay. Just a few more things.

It's been our gosh, it's almost two hours already, but we didn't want to ask you, like in one of your videos, you mentioned rotator cuff pain that you had, like in your shoulders, and that's why you liked to practice the movements before you do it on the water to avoid hurting yourself and so on, which I think makes a lot of sense.

And I can relate to that, to add some rotator cuff issues, mostly from Santa paddling doing like the molcajete race and training a lot and stuff like that kind of insane, like my shoulder. So I had to do, I was actually had really bad pain for two years and I had to do physical therapy and stuff like that.

And I found some good exercise that worked really well. So whenever I have a flare up, I do more of those exercises and that really helps. But but yeah, I just kinda wanted to hear your side of it. Like what kind of pain you have and how you deal with it and what you do.

Fortunately my shoulders have healed up and I don't have the shoulder pain that I was having. I, I was just using Advil and ice on and that would tend to bother me at night in my sleep. And so I seen it in Advil and then once I was stronger, I did some, simple exercises with dumbbells, these and that seemed to, to help lightweight dumbbells on.

So fortunately I have not had any trouble lately, but winging is something that, that it might restrict people that have shoulder problems, that it might be a problem to do that. But the new wings are so much lighter and stiffer. They don't muscle you around like the older ones. So maybe that's an impressive.

Yeah, but yeah, I think it's definitely a good idea to practice the movements on the beach first, just to make sure that you don't get yanked around by the wind when you know, like no unexpected motion or throwing you back, like pulling them shoulder backwards or whatever, lift up, pulling. Those are the things that bothered my shoulder.

And I found there's a little exercise I do on the beach where I bring the wing up overhead and then back down, up overhead. And even behind me and back down. And I found that has really improved my tax. Just doing that little warm up on the beach. When I go out in the water, I feel more confident doing the tax.

Yeah. And I think too I was watching on your patron child that when about tacking 2 0 1, I think you called it, but just like when you bring your wing over your head, just to give the clue little push. It kind of ticks over and lands in the right place to accelerate out of the attack.

That's a super important thing to, to learn how to do before, before you try to do those tasks, especially on your heel side, right? Yeah. But I'm also, just regarding aging well and staying healthy and so on. Do you have any good tips? I'm almost 55 now, so I'm not that far behind you.

And I find, as I get older it's easy, obviously get injured, easier nutritionist super important so do you have any kind of tips or things you do that, that help you avoid inflammation or like nutrition, anything like that? I try to stay hydrate.

I do every now and then maybe once or twice a month, I'll take Advil or Motrin, if I've had a long day on, but I think just staying active, I started water sports when I was 12 years old and I told my wife that I'd been practicing for this sport since I was 12. And really I've my whole life.

I've been fortunate enough to spend in and around the water surfing, wind, surfing, sailing, kite, surfing, paddling, I did them all Chi to Oahu a number of times with a teammate then set foiling and now wing foiling. Now it just and I probably put in four days a week wing foiling Fortunate here on Maui that we have wind virtually every day.

And you can go just about any time you want, but just getting out on the water and staying active. And I'm a little older, so I am cautious to avoid things that I might get injured like jumping. And I try not to overdo it on my sessions, and an hour or two, I use a harness so I can stay out longer on.

And with the harness, I'm not putting the load on my shoulders going to Winward on, but yeah, just trying to stay active, I'm winging. Foiling has kept me young. It's gotten me back in the water. I was kinda over, I was over wind surfing. I was over kite surfing on the prone paddling or the sub paddling was hurting my lower back.

That, that motion. I was just grinding my spine and I but wing foiling, it's an other than the initial stages of climbing on the board, fallen off, climbing on the board. Once you get past that point, there's very little pressure in your hands. And because the foil is above the chop or the board is above the chop, it's like powder snow.

So there's not a whole lot of pressure. And there's people out there that say, oh, you don't need a harness. There's no pressure. And that's true, unless you're racing Ken winter up, when, you need that power to, to drive up wind. But it's just really forgiving easy on the body.

And I hope that I know I have a number of patrons and students that are over 70 that are foiling and being 60. They're an inspiration to me that I think I can keep doing this for another 10 years. Barring any injuries. I think it's, I agree. Yeah. Yeah. It's like a fountain of youth and it's great to see so many different age groups doing it too.

And like you said, the initial learning curve is a little bit can be a little bit dangerous, especially for older people, you have to be really careful not to injure yourself in the beginning, I think. But once you get it down, it's really yeah, like you said, very low impact and not really that hard on your body.

So it's something I think I can keep doing for quite a while. I'm hoping. Yeah. Yeah. Good. Excellent. Anything else that you wanted to talk about? Let me see here. So many, actually we never can you show us your new camera amount? I did. I did want to get back around to that. So you have this camera Mount that months on your plate.

Underneath the plate Mont of the foil. And then it sticks out behind the back of the board. So this, I made this plate, actually. I had a local machine shop welded up in town on and displayed sandwiches between the foil and the board on the track mounts with the Tuttle box, I had to cut this groove to get it to fit the Tuttle.

And so it hangs off the back of the board. And then at the other end, I have a GoPro Mount on it with a little floaty, just in case it comes off. I also have the gro GoPro floaty on there. So if I lose the camera and I've lost a few that's one Mount. So that's how you get that follow cam look like.

It looks like there's a camera falling, like a drone coming in right behind you kind of thing. That's really cool. Yeah. Yeah. That's this action right here. This clip here on and I can aim the camera up to get the hand work. I can Mount it taller on. So it is, and you said you tried the go at the GoPro max.

Like the GoPro max 360. That's the one I've been using a lot. It's like the as I get 360 lens, but then it takes a lot of work to edit it afterwards. And you said you don't really like using this one that much. So you use just a regular GoPro eight or nine? Yeah. This was the max and I found that it is difficult to use the 360.

And I've found that generally trying to capture things that the regular hero amount or just using one side seems to work. The level horizon is really cool. It keeps the horizon level as the board banks right on. I also have a solo shot camera and this is. You wear this satellite tracker on your body and then the camera will track you Zuni and zoom out.

And when this works, it's exceptional, I can shoot 120 frames a second. So it gets slow motion, but so often it thinks I'm over there and it's looking the wrong way. It misses the shot. Yeah. And I had a love, hate relationship with that thing. Cause yeah, like half the time it would work great. In the other half of the time, it was like nothing.

All it, the whole session I would get was just like walk water without me in it. Like where I'm just out of the frame or something like that. I got lots of that. I've got lots of that footage, but when it does work, it's exceptional that I have irregular Sony 4k. I just got this recently, but I need someone to film and my wife has been doing that.

I also have the drone.

It's a Maverick too. Yeah, this is really good, but because so many of the sailing spots are near the airport. I can't fly this. Oh yeah. And then yeah, that's kinda my camera gear. But you said mostly you use a, this irregular GoPro like a GoPro hero and eight or nine with the horizon leveling and yes, I also have the nine with the hydrophobic lens, which is really good.

So many of my shots are ruined because the hydrophobic lens or the non hydrophobic lens, particularly that the max, when water gets on it, it ruins the shot. So interesting. So that's a good one on the camera gear. So how often do you come out with the new video? Do you try to do it on a regular schedule or is there like a like a certain I try to put one out once a month and I'm gonna pull my patrons to see what they'd like to see next.

I have a few ideas, but I try and get ideas from them. And then when I'm out teaching, when I see a particular pattern where a number of people are having trouble with a certain issue, then I'll try and capture that and try and solve that problem. Okay. Okay. So as the fastest person on Maui, what are some tips for going fast on a wing for aboard board?

I'm not the fastest, I'm just joking, but as the winner of the race anyway first one on last one off first one on the wall. Last one off the water. You got to put your time in, you're not going to get good thinking about it, sitting on the beach.

So that's the biggest tip is just spending a lot of time practicing it for sure. Time out there, you can buy speed, you can buy speed. You can buy the foil, you can buy the board, you can buy the wing, all of that, but you also have to know how to use it. So it just takes some time.

Yeah. And that part is the, I think the more important part than the equipment, I the equipment is super important, especially at the very high level. I think where a little bit can make a difference. But I think for the average person, that's just about yeah. The technique and practicing it and to get faster, yeah.

I think that's where you make them. That makes a bigger difference than getting the best and most expensive gear. Yeah, the time for the racing, I practiced every aspect except for the start. There was no really way to practice the start, but there's a few buoys anchored here and there up and down the coast.

And I practice doing a lot of turns around those buoys. I practice sailing close, reach, broad, reach down, wind up, wind on all trying to go as fast as I can. And then of course, when I'm sailing with Ken and Peter it's a race up wind and they regularly punish me. So that's good. It's good to have training partners that are faster than you, right?

That's another good tip. We take turns beating up on each other though. I sometimes kick their ass. It's vice versa. And then in that case where you're all pretty similar, is that I guess that's where the small differences in the equipment they're really noticeable, right? Yes. Yeah. Yeah. It's good to have someone to train with, and you can adjust this and adjust that and try this and try that and share ideas.

And and you said Ken winter has the one-sided so using the 600 bullet and he's using the 800 is that because he's a little bit heavier than you? Or what, why is that one working better for him? He is a little heavier but I let him try this setup that the green board with the foil recently, and he was blistering fast.

And in short order he got his own 600. So he shares that 600 with his wife. Okay. And you can get, I guess if you're buying a different foil size, you have to get that whole one-piece construction, front wing, fuselage, and tailing together. You can mix and match. I believe you can buy separate components. You can buy the smaller, bigger size foil set up. Yeah. But again I really only recommend it for, the high end racer. You got me thinking about it, but man, mostly I'm into doing more like freestyle and going out in the waves and all that cause yeah, the racing can be such an arms race, next year that someone else is going to come out with something a little bit faster than everybody buys that and stuff like that.

And if you don't have it, then you don't really have a chance to win. So that's frustrating.

Yes, I have a garage full of bones. Yeah. But it's definitely fun if he come out on top. It's a good feeling. Yeah. But at this point I'm passing the Baton. I'm going to watch now on I highly encourage you to defend your title of next year, but you already made your decision, but oh, I'll probably be out there, but I'm not gonna put any pressure on myself.

Yeah. It seems like after the Molokai race, I always tell myself I'm not going to do that again. It's so masochistic, but then the next year I'm like, okay, I guess I'm going to start training again. It's a love, hate thing too.

Anyway. Yeah, I really appreciate your time coming on again and a super long conversation. Appreciate it. And keep going, and keep inspiring so many people. I think it's awesome. What you do on Patriots. I highly encourage everyone to join that and get all your good tips in. And of course also you have a great YouTube channel, good videos on YouTube as well.

Thank you. Yeah, but it seems like on the patron channel is where you really post your the premium content. And the whole idea there is I'm trying to teach people as if they were having a lesson with me in person, I'm trying to get it across. And it's pretty challenging to do that on the video, medium, trying to teach a feeling or an experience, but getting better at it.

My editing skills are improving and working on. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. Congratulations on that. And your success there and on winning that race and so on, it sounds like you're doing great. And I'm probably gonna hit you up again next year. Talk talks. What's new next year. All right. All right.

Thank you, Robert. So keep going. Yeah, my pleasure. Thanks. All right. Take care. Hold on. See on the water. Yeah. Okay. There's some little bonus material. Like we, we kept talking a little bit after I stopped recording and now I'm still ask some more prompts to show us. So one thing that's like your trademark is like the hat you're wearing.

So tell us what you're using and how. This is a chilly endurable pat. It's a sailor's hat and I got really badly sunburned down in Australia and started wearing a hat then and came home and found the Tilly it's guaranteed forever. When they wear out, they'll send you a replacement and this one's got some wear on it.

This is my new one, my old one here. This has got about 10 years of use on it. And this is, I wear this only in the water. It doesn't go through the wash. This is a Testament to the amount of time that I've put in. And then as a pretty stiff brim is that I would like to breath. It comes stiff pretty much, but then, you ducked your head and the salt splashes on it, salt, water, it dries out and it's like starch.

So it gets real stiff after a while. As long as they don't completely soak it, which doesn't happen too often. I've been using the shelter hats, which are good too damn that kind of this dish, that doesn't collapse easily. And that's important when it's windy, especially something that doesn't slop down on your face or?

Yes. So this one blocks the spray, it blocks the sun and I've had I've had some Bazell cell cut out of my face a couple of times already. So wear your sunscreen, wear the protective gear, wear hat. Yeah. Any other prompts? I think that's it, but yeah, a hundred percent on the sun, like sun protection.

Oh, first place. So yeah, I have to see a dermatologist every four months now. And every time she finds him, like pre-cancerous stuff and either remove it or use the cream stuff. And it's just frustrating. And that's from the spending too much time in the sun when I was young and not protecting myself enough.

Yes. So for all those young people watching out there wear your sunscreen or you're going to pay later yeah. And wear long sleeves and protect yourself down in the sun. All right. Thanks for sticking around. I really appreciate you listening all the way to the end. Those of you are still listening. You're the ones that I'm making this show for.

It's for the hardcore enthusiasts that can't get enough information. I want to say a special thank you to our customer. Blue planet customers. Like you make it possible for us to produce these shows for free. All our content is available for free. So by supporting blue planet and buying our products, you support shows like this.

So thanks again for listening. And the next show is going to be with Adrian Roper from access foils. We're going to talk soon. Ag just got a new foil set up from him. I'm super excited to test it out and talk to him about the latest equipment and technology in foil design. So I hope you can listen to that interview as well.

Thanks for sticking around once again. See you on the water Aloha.

Wing Foil interview with the Oahu Crew- BluePlanet Show Season 2, Episode 17

Aloha friends, It's Robert Stehlik.  Welcome to season number two of the blue planet show. If you're watching this, you probably already know that this show is all about wing foiling and the personalities behind the sport. I try to go a little bit deeper, find out more, get the good, juicy stories and just learn more about the people and how they live their best life.

So I hope you can join me for another season. Today's show is a really cool talk story session, with four of Oahu best wing foilers. We just give each other advice, you know, for more advanced stuff like wing foiling in onshore wind, how to handle your wing without getting in your way. And then also jumping off the top of the, off the lip then landing back in the wave.  But we also talk about more entry-level stuff. Just like how to get up on the foil and tips for beginners, like how to get started in this cool sport. So I hope you really enjoy this conversation.

I just wanted to apologize that, you know, it's been a while since, last year's 16 episodes.  I got really busy opening a second location for Blue Planet that we now have a new shop in Haleiwa,  it's running pretty smoothly now.

And then around Christmas time or COVID, and I was really feeling low energy and not that good for several months. So about a third of the people who get COVID actually feel the long-term symptoms. So I hope you're not one of them, but I'm happy to report that my energy is back. I feel good. I'm excited to produce more shows.

So I'm going to, re-interview some of the people that I talked to last year and also talk to new people, and I really appreciate everyone's suggestions, comments on blog. Um, keep them coming and I appreciate the support. And, uh, so yeah. Hope you enjoy this cool conversation with my buddies. All right.

Thanks for joining me guys. Today I got core Eli, Derek and Lucas here with me to do a little voiceover on a video that we shot a few weeks ago. And I wanted to talk a little bit about winning an entre when like riding waves and entre wind. Cause it's something that I always find a little bit tricky with the wing handling and stuff like that.

So, uh, Luca was the drone photographer, um, that day and then Koa, Eli and Derek, and I were all in the water. So I'm going to screen screen-share here and we're going to play this video. Can you guys see the screen? Okay, cool. So yeah, this was kind of a rainy overcast day and you went to another spot first and that was.

Raining. And, uh, we're unsure if the wind was going to be good. So we kept going and, um, and then the wind seemed really light and we weren't sure if it's going to be windy enough. So we ended up sending out, um, or. To see if it was windy enough. So tell us a little bit about that call you are the first one to go out.

How was it just to get going? Yeah, it was a bit nerve wracking just because it was my first time being there and I was just like, oh no, what if I go to the sand bank and like hit the sand and like, just get stuck and hoping that the wind was there. Yeah, it's kind of a tricky spot because if you can't get up on foil, you end up getting, you know, pushed downwind into the bay and like basically on the, on the shallow sand.

Um, but once we saw you, um, able to get up and going, we all pumped up and went out as well. And then this is actually, um, at my second session, I came in and got the camera, my back mounted, um, GoPro max. But yeah. Um, I w what I wanted to talk about a little bit, like, one thing I struggle with is when you're, when you're riding the wave going, you know, going with the wind, I never know where to place it.

So it does like, cause if you put it in front of you, you end up getting, um, kind of dark winded, and then sometimes when you put it behind you, then it gets like stuck on the water. So, um, maybe Eli, tell us a little bit about how you, how you handle the wing, um, and entre conditions. Um, what I had when I try to do is have it luffing behind me with enough momentum.

So before I set it behind me, I'd make sure though Ling has momentum and, um, and is moving enough for it to float, because if it, if it doesn't have that, um, movement or momentum, it'll kind of drop, like you mentioned. Um, also sometimes I'll let the tip, touch the water for a little bit. Um, and when I turn, I usually try and swing it around.

Um, and that, that swinging energy really helps keep it floating a little, but yeah, you're right. It's really challenging with onshore conditions. Uh, yeah. What about you, Derek? Do you have any pointers for the I'm writing an entre conditions? Um, I think because I use that Y handles to, well, when I'm surfing.

Um, I don't really feel any like w even if it's on shore off shore, it, I kind of keep the weight on my shoulder. Like, like a shield that prevents any bad windy or any kind of stuff. Yeah. It just, I don't know, wherever my shoulder goes again, it helps. But, um, if I was to hold the front end, Definitely would have to take a different approach to yeah.

I mean, yeah. I've noticed that too, even in, um, well, I guess if it's tied off shore, it's kind of hard to do that, but you kinda like to keep the wing really close to your shoulder and then hold it by the Y handle. Yes. Yeah. You know, and with that, that allows me to kind of use the wing. A wing tips, like as a pivot point, you know?

Yeah. It seems like with that onshore conditions, how Derek codes, it, sometimes the one that's on shore, the wind will kind of power up the top of the wing and he'll get some power and speed from that almost.

Yeah. Like kind of pushing you to kind of like call you back. You know, when the guys put the wing behind him and he just riding for miles. Um, I can use that as kind of, as a advantage and get me to fats, um, spots or, um, project you to a turn to make it look like your attorney even harder, but actually what's happening is the wind.

Pushing you and you just, you just surfing a foil, you know, you said about mitigate what happened. Yeah. But what have I, what about you called away? Um, was this the first time you, we know you winged in Kailua and other onshore conditions before? Yeah, I would just say, um, just keep the speed going and. The wing will just do its own thing.

Yeah. I don't know. I guess I think it just takes some practice to like, I, I guess I just hadn't had that much practice writing and entre when it's just different. When, uh, insider conditions, you can just kind of flag it out and it'll stay, stay kind of next to you, but it's definitely different when it's on shore conditions.

Yeah. You just, you just have to make sure that it doesn't end up in front of you when you're going faster than the, than the wind. Yeah. So like, if you're going down the line on the wave or with the, um, sometimes you can, you can get back winded and then that's like, you definitely don't want the wing between you and the, and the wave basically, but I I've noticed.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. You end up, you end up running over it. You're going to run over you. And land on it. Um, like the rafting or something, or it's going to come in front of you. And then, um, if there's other surfers or all your other winger friends, you're not going to be able to see anything at all. You know?

So you just got to, um, I think if you go and you probably spend a few hours, you should be able to figure out what a word. Yeah, but it's definitely not something where you just go over there and you show up and you, and you comfortable and you just gotta work it out or surf other spots in that similar wind range and just figure out what our expense.

Right. Cool. Um, so the, the one, the one thing that was really fun that day was like just jumping. On the kind of like jumping off the top of the wave and landing back into the wave. And that that's seems like it's pretty easy to do when the winds blowing on shirk as the wind kind of pushes you back into the wind wave.

So you, do you want to talk a little bit about that technique of like jump jumping off, off the top of the wave and landing back into maybe.

You were doing a lot of those, those jumps. I am regular footage. Um, so the wind is a little side onshore, um, kind of favorable, uh, for being regular footed. That means jumping going left would be he'll side, um, with his light on short conditions. You know, anytime it's on shore, it's a little easier to stay on the wave.

Um, but these conditions were really light and onshore. So it makes it a little more challenging. You definitely want to project your momentum forward and not too much to the side. You don't want to fall out the back. You want to make sure you land in front of the wave so you can, um, continue writing it.

But yeah, anytime it's on shore conditions, it'll kind of help push you into the wave a little, uh, yeah, look it out. And I was a nice one in landed right in the white wash and came down. That was a nice one. Any tips we're pulling off the landings more consistently? No, it's all up. Um, it's really helpful if you land in front of the wave so you can keep your speed and momentum up.

Um, also the way you point your foil in the water, when you come down can be helpful. And when you kinda bring the foil up, that kind of helps stabilize it a little, you know, like a little Railey or, um, kind of bringing it up a little that helps it's helps me anyway, stabilize it. And it helps me stay. Um, she did in with the wing.

You can see Barrick bringing up and landing it right down there. Yeah. I find it helps to, um, put your weight a little bit on the back. So you don't nose dive on the landing. And then what seems to work for me is like touching down slightly with the board, but then trying to bring it, pop it back up right away on, back on the foil.

Um, What about you, Derek? You got any tips for the landings yeah. In that, um, you know, watching a video. And so you would, when you come in to your approach to, you know, do an air, you kind of hit that top section, but you whole, your wing kind of it kicks so that the wing, the wind is in your cell and it's pushing you.

You know, not, not necessarily just going straight up and holding it. Cause if you put your wings straight up, it'll take you up and in a way will pass by you. So you got to kind of go up and angle your wings or the like the direction that the waves are going and it'll help you push you and the land you towards the wave fate.

And then from there you can surf it out. So I think if, if you was to just hit it like a regular. And I'm like years going out. It'll get all your score, take you straight up. The wave will pass and you land behind somewhat in some of the videos, you can see some of the guys land behind the oh, but they didn't mean to do that.

It's just that the projected objection and the way to win, you gotta travel. You gotta take your errors in the same direction that the wave is, is slowing. Yeah, that makes sense. What about you COA? You got any pointers for jumping? Uh, I would usually just pump my wing, get enough air. And once I do, I try to go like on the edge of the wave and once I'm in the air, I try to like snap it onto the wave.

So if I'm going, here's the wave. And then if I'm going like of it, I try snapping on it so I can go back down. It. But my dad says always like pointed down and then you'll come back up. But usually that doesn't work cause I usually just nose dive. So I like keep it flat when I land. Yeah. I've noticed that too.

If, if I, if I landed to flatter, then once the nose catches, then you kind of you're done with it. So I almost try to lean a little bit on the tail, keep the weight on the tail so that doesn't happen. But yeah, here you can see Derrick really. Getting the wind behind you. So it's almost like the winds pushing you, right?

Like the winds pushing you from behind. And then I ran to, I mean, I played this one again, cause that was kind of a good one. Um, see

where yeah. You get to being kind of behind you where it's kind of pushing you and then swing it around. That's pretty stylish.

I haven't figured that one out yet.

Yeah, no, no. It seemed like watching the videos and then, you know, from when we were there, it seemed, didn't seem like you have any issues, um, with the onshore, I guess it was, um, um, that's what you felt when you, when you was writing, you felt like it was kinda, um, Hampering your style a little bit, Rob. Yeah.

I mean, I hadn't felt like I could either go left or go. Right. But then like the transitions between like going like back and forth, weaving back and forth, I just haven't figured out to put the wing behind me like that yet, you know, like where we're at and where it's smooth, you know? Um, that's kind of still something.

And let's say coy, you can still kinda, you're still working on that too. A lot of times the wing wants to flip over like here. Yeah. Like it catches and subs over.

Um, so, but yeah, I seen you too. Like, um, you and Eli, both, um, sometimes you, you drag the, the tip of the wing a little bit, so it kind of comes behind you and when you turn. She not

trying to help you get help. It help it flow. And then they can this one too. It kind of helps for me. If I switch hands on me. That one, I came over my head. Um, but sometimes when I'm turning to keep it directly behind me, almost like in my draft, uh, past the leading edge handle behind, behind my back and switch hands.

Um, sometimes that'll help keep that swinging momentum. There's almost, uh, almost like there's more rotation, you know, inertia coming out of the. Uh, especially with those bigger wings. Yeah. I think I was riding a seven meter. There's a lotta, um, a lot of meat and mass to it, but those wings, those wings move through the air pretty well.

I like the momentum that develops from those, um, from those wings actually flying through the air. Yeah. I mean, having a big wing is nice too, when you do jumps, because it's so lofty. Yeah. You can kind of really cold, like it they'll pull you up right. About using a bigger wing too.

All right. I think that was it for this video and the stuff stop sharing here. You see, uh, yeah. Everybody working that day. I mean, you know, Well, I didn't impressive of what everybody, you know, to the performance it was doing. And, and just, um, you could see by the look in the, um, the people that was proning or longboarding, and even the guys in a parking lot, you know, they just looking at us.

Why aren't we doing that? You know? Yeah. I mean, it's always fun to go out with a group of guys that then everybody's kind of pushing each other and you watch the other guys doing stuff and then you try to, and stuff like that. Yeah. So definitely makes it more challenging. But, um, yeah, I wanted to, um, talk a little about this one.

Where I'm Derek. I think this is the first time you, you pulled off a back loop. Is that right? Um, have you pulled up other ones? Um, just one before, but this is the only one on, you know, like film and stuff like that. Yeah. So tell us a little bit about like your technique. Like what do you do? What do you try?

What do you think about. How does it work for you? Um, my dad. So when I attempted a few, I noticed my wing was gained. Uh, and then I remember once you mentioned, um, trying to do to, uh, you watching a video and you said, oh, you, it seems like I don't get enough air time before I start my rotation. I try to flick it as soon as I hit the waves.

Um, so watching other guys' videos, um, I noticed that Dinko project themselves up first and then they complete their rotation. So, um, earlier that day I tried to do one and take taking the wind caught and I felt like, gosh, I got to change that up. So when I was going out, um, a few other times, not even jumping off, just project the wing with my leading.

On the leading edge side, just going straight up and jumping straight up, kind of do kind of deal and not necessarily rotating, just getting that field to, okay. I got to go up first. Then once, once I'm up at the peak, then go ahead and rotate a man on that one. That's what that's kind of what happened is just, you know, kind of went up and then did a rotation and lucky thing.

Luckily. None of the tips or, or anything else, um, and pulled me back down and then I was able to, you know, just land it, still trying to working on writing out of it. But, um, the last time I attempted the wings caught anyway, even on when I came down and it caught on the back of the wave and my foyer. True to wing and other way.

Oh man. So I knew I never do. What's supposed to be done, you know, so that's part of it. Right,

right on. So I'm just playing, uh, another video. Um, this is on the north shore. Where I'm with Derek and Isla and I, so, and actually I wanted to ask you Luke Lucas, um, talk a little bit about the challenges of, um, filming a wing furthering with the drone.

Yeah, absolutely. Um, Um, probably about mile off shore with you guys. And this has been a learning experience for me as well. I did get some good shots, but a lot of it was learning how to keep everybody in frame. This video that we did was actually probably one of my best, best two better ones. Um, but just trying to keep everybody in frame and especially if there's multiple people.

Like this clip right here was awesome. Was probably one of the best clips I ever did. Um, but just especially if there's like two, three people trying to keep everybody in frame was the hardest on trying to stay, stay and make sure that I'm high enough, that nothing's going to happen. I'm not going to run into anybody or catch away of myself.

Um, but just like with foiling practice, We can get better. So, yeah. Yeah. And, and what's interesting too, is that like this, for this seven minute video, we, we were on the water pipe for several hours and I think you used like, used up like nine batteries, right. Like flew in and out nine times and it is pretty far out, so yeah.

Um, it takes a lot of work to get that footage. Yeah. But yeah, I wanted to talk a little bit about the difference. Like here, you can see the winds blowing more like side off shore, so it's really different the way you hold the wing that you can just hold it out to the side. And it pretty much just, um, it's, I, I find it easier to handle the wing when it's just blowing off site off shore.

Uh, w w what do you think Eli.

Yeah, definitely. It keeps the wing, um, to the side and behind you, nothing in the front. So you got a, um, clear view of the wave or where you need to go. Uh, also when it's on shore, the wing is in front of you and you're always battling the tip from the tips falling down in front of you and touching the water.

So it's definitely much easier. Uh, but this place in particular is pretty tricky where we were at a win is really up and down. Uh, once you ride the wave further and the wind gets really late. Um, so it's pretty tricky is kind of challenging. Yeah, for sure. It's a tricky spot. And if you fallen in the impact zone, sometimes there's like no wind and you can't really get going again and you can't get back out again.

Uh, but I think Derek, sometimes you try to still kind of get the wing behind you, even in the side offer conditions, right? Um, yes. Yeah. With that, with that Y handle, um, um, shoot position. Um, I can just, you know, it's, it's kind of beneficial cause I can go into the wind and. Back against the wind and just still hold the wing and it will really affect, um, the good thing about the size storage, like, you know, where the wind is, where the wing going to be.

Cause the wind is just blowing. Um, versus the onshore condition. You, you kinda okay. Um, I'm writing, right. And I'm going fast. So the wing is going to be behind me, but as soon as I turn, everything would drop in and you know, all of a sudden you have the weight in front of you. So with this one, no matter where you're going, you should be in front of because you have that super strong gusty close the window, as soon as, as soon as you.

It's going to be that side, whatever west side of Euro. Right.

But yeah, with that, with that little white stuff, because it's not on the leading edge, I feel like I can hold it and manipulate the wing a little more too. Kind of conform to, you know, to the waves. Like sometimes when you on the wave and if it gets deeper, it's a lot of times a week, the wind will come up the face and blowing up and then, you know, if you're not ready for that, you, you, um, the loss handle would just starts spinning on you.

Cause all of a sudden it's going from side shore, um, position until it. And when you get to the C part of the wave, it's going to go start going. Um, from your feet up here ahead, and then you're going to be, you know, trying to fight that. Yeah. Cause while you're holding that Y handle it's your forearm and your shoulder is also in contact with the wing, right?

So you got three points of contact. It seems like it would be a lot more stable than just holding the left handle. So then you can kind of stabilize it with your shoulder too, I guess that. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it just, it just, it becomes another part of your, um, yeah. So another part of your body, you know, you just got to get ready for that little push of winning Tibet when you, or, or, or whatnot.

Yeah, let's talk a little bit about like, like the wing size. Like I know I kinda like using a little bit bigger wing and I know Eli, I guess it just depends on your body way too. If you're, if you weigh more, it's definitely helpful to have a bigger wing. It's also easier to handle a bigger wing, I guess, if you're tall and, uh, and build a stronger, bigger, but, um, I've noticed Derek most of the time, it seems like you're almost always on your four meter wing.

Huh? Yes. Yeah, of course. Yeah. I tried, unless the wind is almost dead. I'll go ahead and use a five meter. But as far as, um, I find the four is just fine, you know, it's enough to going, um, mobile 1 45, 1 50 pounds, 150 pounds. And, um, My board is like, I think it's about 75 liters and I'm using a thousand, most times you're getting a thousand, um, oil.

So it's, it's enough to get, get me going, you know? And usually when you start, you, you get up on in the standing position on your board before you lift the wing out of the water, right? Like you stand up on the board and then you lift up doing. Yes. Yes. Yeah, no, not on the knees or, or I'm sinking or whatever.

Yeah. Is, do you do it that way to call? I know, I know your dad, Eddie does it that way too. Right? Standing on the board. Yeah. He's the one that taught me how to do it. So you do it that way too. Yeah. I never did a knee start before. And what about you? I am here. I use, uh, my board has a lot of leaders, so I stand on it first leaning on the wing and then I'll pull it up.

Yeah. Yeah. I, I recently started using a pretty small board. It's only like, um, I think as a run 55 liters or something like that. And like, there's, there's no way I could stand, stand up on it. So I pretty much have to knee start, but I've, that's how I've been doing it all along anyways. But. But yeah, I guess that that standing technique is probably a little bit easier on your, on your knees and back to, you know, you don't, you don't have to kneel on your board as well.

It can be a little tip here. Cause when you're up out of the water, it's a little less stable. Right. So I think there's pros and cons to both, both ways. So let's talk a little bit about getting up on foil, like, um, the technique for like pumping or like if, if the wind's not quite enough to easily, like have it pull you up onto the foil, like what do you do to kind of, uh, get moving and get up on the foil?

What are some pointers?

I think you have a lot of trades for this. Yeah. Yeah. As like the light wind master. Huh. And I think a lot of it has to do with the type of foil too. I know the higher aspect wing. Uh, front wings with less cord, longer wink at a longer wingspan. Um, in my experience, those files like to, um, speed is your friend when you're trying to get up.

So when I try to get up with those enlight, when I really focus all of my pulling and pumping. To go forward, gaining speed and a speed helps you get up. When I use a lower aspect wings or the mid aspect wings, um, I tend to, uh, direct my pulling and pumping upwards. So I try to pull my weight up and I try to bounce the board to get it up.

But with the higher aspect wings, I try to pull my weight forward and looking for any kind of, especially in the wind is looking for any kind of current or little bumps that might be going your way of trying to get on that bump and use that to build your speed as well. Yeah. And I think like for gaining speed for high aspect, for like that has like a kind of a high.

Planning speed. Um, it really helps to have a board that kind of, uh, Glidewell tour kind of generates that speed easily. Right. Um, But I guess the other, the other check is in light, wind is just to not fall in. Right. So as long as you up fine, if you don't come off the floor, usually you can keep it going.

But once you come off, then sometimes you just have to wait for gust or whatever to, to pick you up again, right? Yes. Yeah. And, uh, um, you know, initially when we all was learning, we just would stay out until. Oh, shucks, without a paddling, you know, but now as, as you progress, I think every winger, you see the signs and you recognize there's a, there's a rain cloud, or there's not, there's not too much texture.

And we recognize now is, well, we've got to go in, you know, and we fly to other people. I mean, in our circle, we fight through other people like, Hey, Set in. And usually we make it in, you know, it's the most signs when you try to, um, push the limits is when you get stuck out there and you gotta, you know, get a ride in or some, somebody would just come down to the beach and pick up.

Yeah, but I mean, I find that, well, here in Hawaii, anyways, like even though in the wind's dying, it'll, you know, they'll still be like a couple more gusts coming before it completely dies. You know? So sometimes if you're just patient instead of paddling and you can wait and eventually there'll be another, another gust to get you going.

And then you can usually ride back in. I dunno, like to me sometimes it's, it's worth it to be patient and wait a little bit before. Take that long paddle and yeah. Yeah. But it, it, it's, it's part of the learning curve where you recognize that and you go, okay, the next one we're going to, you know, I'm going in, in, in the beginning, it used to be like always we're we're we're we're a good wind.

Again, let's go, you know, and you just keep saying out. Ken 15 minutes and all of a sudden it's like for real, that when it's gone and then you're, you're going, oh, I, I really think I kind of paddle now and you know, yeah. Sometimes when the last Gus comes, you, you just as best as go in right in with, with that last guest.

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. Yeah. And then I found, um, I noticed for, for myself on getting up on wing when it's lighter, when, um, when I'm first starting to holding a wing in my hand and I'm waiting, um, it'll be hillside, which is, you know, little bit easier for most people. Um, I'll have my feet. Y at a white scent in this, in my straps.

And was it fueled a little bit Gus coming, I'll give a couple pumps with my arms, couple, you know, pump my legs. And then as I'm going forward with the, with my arm momentum and getting that little pool, I'll go ahead and slide my foot forward in the straps. And as that little moment, um, movement of my foot coming forward will be enough to like scoop the foil forward.

And oh, and that'll help me get up on foil easier than, you know, just standing in a, like a lock position. Hmm.

It's hard. It's, it's kinda that. I know that's kinda what I do. It's hard to kind of picture it, but this time we're at the beach, I'll kind of show you, you know, just to like, kinda like holler, um, the don't, uh, prone paddlers, when you do Flatwater. Same momentum. He just kind of scoot the board for you.

Slide your feet in the straps forward and that'll, that'll help propel to foil forward and up as you, as you're pumping your arms. Yeah. I mean, one thing about pumping the wing too, is like sometimes I see people pumping kind of almost too hard where they're pulling so hard that then there's like the wing just like flops on the way back.

So they, I think the trick is to kind of have more of a smooth, um, kind of more of a. Um, like it's, it's more like a rotation and you, you still, you don't want the wing to get back winded or, or flat. Totally. Like you want to keep a little bit of power in the wing, but it's like generating a little bit of extra pull.

And then at the same time, as you're kind of pulling on the wing, you kind of lift up on your feet a little bit and sometimes that's enough to release the board and get going. Yeah. But, um,

It's tricky, but that's a, and that's, that's a similar, similar concept towards, um, you know, when you say you want to do two for one, there are you pumping into ways you got to have that schooled cadence that, that, that pumping, um, cause if you kind of go like too much off rhythm, you, you won't be able to do.

Maneuvered at foil and then you'll come off foil and then drop down. So same thing with, with, like you said, with the wing pumping, you, you need to have that, you know, that boy, that nice cadence going. Okay.

Yeah. Corey, do you have any tips on, on getting, going or getting up on foil? So, like, as you said, I do that around motion and if I go too hard, that's going to come back at me and that just makes it slows me down. So what I do is, uh, once I see a little bit texture in the water, I get on my board, I started doing that rounded a rotation.

And then what I do is I jump, like I jump in the water, like I'm jumping, jumping. Uh, without the board, I just like jump up and while I'm just pumping, pumping, pumping, and once I feel that pool, I just like pull it and then I jump into it and that's how I get up. Oh, so you kind of almost jumped with your feet off the board completely to unweight completely kind of thing.

Yeah. Do you have your feet in the straps when you do that? Uh, sometimes or like, yeah, sometimes I keep it off and then I just like, go on it and I slide the board. More to get the motion going. And then I jumped and then the board will come up and then I put my feet in the straps, or just, if it's, if it's windy, I just put my feet in the straps and I could just get up.

Yeah, but yeah. So something to mention for kind of people starting out, like when you, when you're starting out, you, I guess you depend more on having either really strong wind or just a bigger wing, um, bigger wing and a bigger foil to get going, but yeah, as you get better and develop that technique for pumping and so.

Then you can work your way down to using a smaller foil and a smaller wing and, and a smaller board and, and having, having that equipment, it just makes it everything else nicer if you, because basically if you're using a big board and a big wing and a big foil, Once you're up on foil, then it's kinda, you have everything it's like more than you need.

Yeah. As you're overpowered, you have too much from the foil and the board's kind of in your way, because so big. So as, as you get better, that's kind of the goal to kind of use the smallest equipment you can use basically. Right. And, you know, core brought up a good point. He said that when he sees a Gus coming or he sees the texture on the water, Um, it's really important to know the area you're in, uh, depends how the wind is blowing.

If the wind is more off shore, you get a shorter, um, a shorter glimpse at when, um, the gust is coming. Sometimes if it's side or on shore, you can see the gusts coming from far away. And it's important in my opinion, to, to be able to visually tell. Kind of like the wind speed. You can see the texture on the water and you can be thinking like, oh, that's not enough wind.

And you see more texture on the water, you think, okay, when that Gus comes here, that's going to be enough wind. So you can start prepping when you see it coming, you can start getting a. Pulling a little build up your momentum, build up your speed. Then when that Gus does hit you, you're halfway there you need is a couple of pumps or a couple little hops.

And that's especially important when the wind is light and the guts are coming, um, you know, really quick and short little puffs. I think that's a really good point. Yeah. Um, to, and also to kind of save your energy. Sometimes you've aware themselves out before the good Guskey comes and then they fall in right.

When, when the wing wind is strong enough to just pull them out without doing anything. Right. So, um, yeah, sometimes just being a little bit patient and waiting for that, the right moment to take off is really key. Right. And watching, looking for it, looking up when, and see what's coming. And the other thing too, is if you're trying to pull yourself up and the wind is not strong enough, if you're going, um, away from shore, you could be pulling yourself far away from shore and you're going to have to paddle in, um, farther.

And you can also be pulling yourself away from the windier spot tool. Like if you kind of know your area. So if you're just standing up. Um, you know, and the, when is too late to get up, it could, you could be sailing away, you know? So it might be better to sit down until you see a good Gus coming. So you're not losing ground or anything.

Yes. Yeah. I agree with that. We seen that a bunch, a bunch of times where, um, it'll be strong enough to keep you moving on the surface, but not, you know, gun. To get you up and flying. Um, so we see, you know, a bunch of times where guys are just trying, try and try and guys and girls actually. And, um, there ended up going like way down the coast or way out, you know?

And, um, luckily there's a, you know, a steady Gus and they can get up and then fly back in. So, um, yeah, I also recommend, you know, if, if you looking on the water surface and you see as kind of glassy and still. You look behind of it and you see texture, you just kind of sit and wait, or you just kinda hold your wing, uh, put your wing in the water, like an anchor and just, you know, wait till you see it, um, to that texture is coming closer.

And once you come in closer, then you get your balance, get your stance ready, and then you get ready to go and give that couple pumps and hopefully you get up. Right. Exactly. And then I've noticed too, like sometimes. Um, even, even when you have a really big wing, you still have to wait for that. Gus it's like, not like you can just get going at any, any moment you want, right.

Even with the seven meter weighing, you still have to wait for that Gus to get going. But, and I think one of the big advantages of having a really big wing in those, on those light wind days is that you can cut. Um, make it through the, through the laws. Like if there's a spot where there's almost no wind at all, with the big wing, you can just kind of fly through it without too much trouble.

Whereas on a small wing, you kinda wear yourself up pumping and maybe not make it through that law. Um, so that's kind of, I think one of the bigger advantages of having a big wing and light wind is just that you can keep going easier more than getting it going earlier. Right. Um, so, and Derek, I know you've been teaching a lot of people.

Like what, what kind of stuff do you see? Like, do you have any tips for beginners people starting out? Like, um, what do you, what kind of mistakes do you see a lot? Like what, what kind of tips do you give people that are starting out and learning?

Um, a lot of things I see is they're going, they're trying to be, um, take bigger steps than they should. Like, can you be more at bats? You know, oh, I'm better than this. I foil, I tight. I do all of that. And they just use two small boards, wings. Um, they're trying to pump and pump their legs and pump their arms at the same time.

Um, and then trying to go to too much of an advanced spot, you know, I mean, there's nothing wrong with going to a little kiddie pool or, you know, learning area. Get it down and, um, advanced from there, you know, like, like everybody else that did, did it, you know, and it's always good as, especially when you, you, when you do it back then you, you want to, um, learn something else.

It's always good to go back, work on that thing means that little kiddie pool and then, you know, apply it to, um, the breaks and the cell phone guy. So Donna, don't try to advance to quickly go and like Flatwater locations first. And I find it, it really helps to have a place to where you can just go downwind, right.

Where you don't have to worry about staying in one spot. Like you can just keep going down wind or get picked up at somewhere down downwind or something like that, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Cause a lot of times, um, it's a mental thing too, so you know, when you're flying and you're going further down. And, and you looking back Ingrid hole, how am I going to get back to my car or, or back to the beach or my friends or whatnot, that kind of puts a damping audit.

And then you end up coming in to shore and you end up walking back and 15 minutes with all this B gear. And then when you, you go out twice, but a third time you go into the way that I'm done, you know? So if, if you can get somewhere where, um, You can go a few miles straight down when that, that would be ideal.

Or if you can go with somebody that has a, you know, um, escort boat, jet ski, or something like that, then you, you don't have to worry mentally. You don't have to worry, how will I get back? You know? So that, that really helps any other big, good beginner tips.

Um, don't give up cause you know, once you get it, it's good. Yeah. I, yeah, I see that too. Like a lot of people just kinda, um, they, they think they're going to learn it in a couple of days and then when they don't, they get frustrated and they give up on it, right? Yes, yes. Yeah. And, and, and, you know, if you, I mean, it's no shame in asking.

Assistant, um, for, you know, tips from anybody else and even taking a lesson or two, you know, cause it's, um, it'll just help out in the long run because if he try, uh, you know, you, you see people around, whether it's, um, all over the world and they try to do it on their own and it's, it takes them it, they might get it eventually, but it takes them longer than if they went to, uh, you know, like that middle, proper routes.

Yeah. What about you call? You got any pointers? I know you've only learned to wing for like about a year ago or how long have you been, have you been doing it? Uh, I would say a little less than a year. Like it's like the second week that I started to like, learn how to hydrofoil itself, like soap and, uh, some beginner tips, I would say.

Yeah, just don't get. Just no shame and asking for help, ask for tips and yeah, that's it. Would you say, um, some foiling is easier or wing foiling was easier for it to, for you to learn? Uh, I would say wing foiling, just because self-fulfilling, you have to like, actually get on the wave, but with weighing, you just need, when we can like control the board, however way you like, then.

And like have some support, uh, like the wind holding you while you're moving your wing. Cause when you're on a sub, you're just like balancing it out by yourself. Yeah. I agree with that. What about you? You lying? You got any more tips? And I'd say, um, when learning it's really helpful, if you make it easier on yourself, uh, get the right gear, especially if you foil before either sub or prone, um, you're gonna want a boy.

With enough leaders for you to comfortably stand on. Um, you probably gonna want a little bigger foil than you're used to just, um, more lift in general. Um, that'll make things easier, more lift, more stability would definitely help. Also practicing on land is real helpful because once you're in the water, you know, you're gonna, you're gonna be worried about balancing or be worried about getting up on foils.

If you've already got your, when handling basic stone from playing around on the, on the land, just passing hand to hand, um, practicing little jibes or whatnot in the wind. Um, that'll save you a lot of time and also practicing with a skateboard on a nice flat area. Um, that helps. That really helps with transitions too, like jiving and tacking, learning the emotions to that.

Cause so it easier to do it on a board skateboard then on the water when it's on the forest, staying up on foil and all that right now. Cool. Well, um, are there any, is there anything you guys want to say to the people getting into the sport? Like in terms of like the community or like any message you want to give to everybody getting into the sport?

Alicia?

No, I was just saying where Leisha is. Check your leashes, always check your gear. You know, if a wing leash breaks, you know, one flip and the wing is about 10 feet away from you, you know? So like two flips, three flips before you know it, it's going to be like 30 yards away from you. Make sure you check your leash.

And, um, also communication is key because as you get up on foil, say you're with two people. Once you get up on foil and you're gone, uh, the conditions aren't always conducive for you to come back and talk story and coordinate and plan. So before you even get into water, kind of have a game plan, which your crew or your partners about where you guys are going to end, which direction you're heading and whatnot, communication and safety rule important.

Yes. Definitely. Definitely. And, and, and as well as, um, um, where was I going with this? Um, yes. Letting other people know, you know, like even others in the surf, when you do get out and start going to the surf, we don't need to be going through a super crowded lineup. I mean, we can just stay outside. Like, um, a lot of times on the agriculture here, we have miles of ways that we can catch to the area where the surfers are and we can kick out.

And we just told them guys go, you guys, go ahead and we'll fly back out and just, and just enjoy, you know, and, um, the community right now, you know, winging is so new. Um, there are. Awesome people everybody's willing to help. Um, if you do have questions, reach out, you know, either on social media, on to your local break.

Um, too, however, dude, don't feel, um, a shame of asking any questions, you know, any tips, as soon as you see somebody doing really cool stuff, they more than likely just being in Europe. Six months ago, eight months ago, you know, a year like when Wayne falling is not old. So you're going to ask a question and yeah, I'll go ahead and say, Hey, maybe you should try this, or you should try that.

You know? Cause we, we were all there before, you know?

Yeah. And it's like, it's kinda up to us to make the community the way we want it to be, you know, like. And like surfing is kind of a lot of times like surfers are so aggressive or like they kind of have to be to be able to get away, you know, and yeah. And wing falling. You don't, you don't really have, we don't need that really.

Right. You can just have fun and Sharon and enjoy it together and not have to be like aggressive. And, um, like we can just share, wave and smile. Right. We don't have to get all mad at each other or something. So. But I was just thinking another tip. I kind of,  saying like, if, if your board ever ends up being upside down with the foil sticky, And your wing is close by like that's like emergency situation, especially if the board is upwind of your wing, just do whatever you can to flip that foil back underwater and away from your wing, because it happens so quickly that the thing just tips over it gets blown into your wing, and then you have a big hole in your wing and you're out of action for a few days and have to get up checks and so on.

So that's, I think that happens to beginners, right? Yeah, it happened very quickly. Also. I also see people sometimes like having their board on the beach with the first sticking up and then they tie the leash, the wing leash to the top of the foil or something like that. And then the first Gus that comes it's like blows it over and w the foil falls into the wing or something like that.

So just be very aware of your foil. And not falling onto your wing, you know, that cause that damages your wing very easily. Right? I think we've all. Yeah. Yeah. What was that from experience or was that from something you saw? Oh yeah, it never happened to me. Of course. I just saw other people doing that.

Yeah. As Brian dicey knows.

Yeah. All right. Any, any other last words to anyone? All right. Thank you. Thank you. And everything. Sorry. Caught you had something else to say? Yeah. I just want to say have fun. Be safe. Communicate. Uh, no, the wind directions respect the community. All right. Big tips. Alright, that's great. All right. Well thank you all for your time.

And I know you have school tomorrow morning and we all probably have to work and stuff like that. It's free. It's like 10 o'clock at night. So thanks for joining me and thanks for everyone watching on YouTube and, uh, take care. I'll see you on the water. Aloha. Thank you. Thanks. So good.

All right. Thanks so much for sticking around to the end. And I know some of you listened to it as a podcast and probably have listened to every single word, but those of you on YouTube, uh, if, if you watch it all the way to the end on YouTube, you're one of the elite 5% who watched the whole thing from start to end.

So congratulations for that. And thanks for sticking around. Uh, so please give it a thumbs up if you liked it and, you know, leave your comments down below. And, uh, and thanks for the support, uh, for blue planet. Basically the show is sponsored by people like you, that support our business blue planet. So I always appreciate that.

Um, we're keeping it free. I'm not charging anything or you don't have to make any donations or anything like that, but if you can support Buchanan next time you're buying some new foil equipment that's really appreciated. And that's what supports this show. So thank you and have a good one. See you on the water.

Aloha.

Armie Armstrong Wing Foil interview, Blue Planet Show Episode 16

Aloha friends. It's Robert Stehlik, welcome to another episode of the blue planet show. On this show, I interview Wing foil athletes, designers, and thought leaders and ask them in-depth questions about wing foil equipment and technique. I'm also trying to get to know my guests a little bit better, their background, how they got into water sports, what inspires them and how they live their best life.

As a visual learner, I'm adding visual content that you can watch right here on YouTube, but you can also listen to these long form interviews on the go as a podcast, just search for the blue planet show on your favorite podcast app.

Today's interview is with none other than Armie Armstrong, the founder of Armstrong foils.

It's amazing how he built a business in just a few years from a few prototypes to one of the biggest manufacturers in the world of foiling and a wing foiling equipment. We just got some of their new boards at our shop here in Honolulu. Really nice, Innovative features. And he talks about that in this interview also about growing up on a sailboat, learning how to walk basically on a sailboat, sailing around the world with his parents.

So that's a really cool back story. I thought I also want to say a special thank you to our sponsors. This show is brought to you by people just like you, that support blue planet here in Honolulu. So next time you're shopping for new gear. Please check out blueplanetsurf.com. And I think you'll find that we have great quality, service and pricing, so you can't go wrong getting gear from blue planet.

And of course also you're supporting content like this and making it possible. So thanks for everyone who supports their business.

All right. Army Armstrong. Welcome to the blue planet show. Thanks so much for coming on. How are you doing today? Oh, awesome, man. Yeah, we're just about to go and test some prototype foil.

As soon as this is finished, we're out on the water. So yeah, life is good. We were locked down and Zed for awhile recently, and it's all for a year and a half behind the rest of the world with the COVID thing. So we're going through it now. I don't know. It's crazy, but yeah, we were allowed back on the water.

Yeah, a couple of months of that was pretty bad locked off the water. So now we're back into it. You weren't allowed to go even on the water at all during lockdown, you had to stay in your house. Basically. Yeah, it was pretty hardcore. And then even now, we're, I guess we're almost two and a half months into it, like a lot of businesses of open, so it's pretty hard for a lot of people.

I'm just super lucky that that you guys in the states seem to be charging ahead and carrying on and Europe as well seem to be back to normal. So fingers crossed. We hit that way too. Yeah. Not really back to normal, but people are just tired of arranging their lives around COVID, and basically just like at some point you just have to learn to live with it.

I guess that's the thing, but yeah, like last time we met was I guess like about three years ago, I think in Raglan maybe two years ago before the, before this whole thing. Yeah, that's right. When that was that your last international trip? Probably one, no, actually I went to New Zealand again, like a year later, which was in February, I think, February on 2009, 19.

As the pandemic was already going on in China right before they stopped the travel international travel. So that was a good trip. But so now you're in Auckland. Yeah. Zeeland it's it's. Summer's just starting, you got nice weather over there. Yeah. It's just starting. And yeah, we're lucky we're at a lockdown and we're back in the water.

And yeah, we're just getting through pretty exciting list of prototypes and, moving ahead, once they put in. Let's start in the beginning. Last time we talked to you, you mentioned, you just said that you grew up on a sailboat sailing around the world with your parents.

So I don't want it to find out more about that. Can you tell us more about, how you grew up and how you got into water sports and, love for the ocean and all that kind of stuff. I was just really lucky that born into a sailing family. I think I was really lucky.

Definitely had a lot of great adventures with my parents. I was conceived in Brazil, so my father was an architect in Brazil, and then they'd been planning, a sailing adventure with some friends of theirs who is also a Kiwi architect along with my father. And they went back well all back to the UK, made up there boredom.

Fit it up. And I had two young families, so six kids total, three each side, and then the four adults. And they jumped on a 44 foot kitchen sound off around the world to the blue yonder. And so that was, I was six months old when we left the UK. And, we sat around for a couple of years, floating around the Pacific to learn, to walk on the boat and then, ended up in New Zealand after, pretty good salient venture.

And then we were always sailing every, every chance my parents got to get out and about. And once we were in New Zealand. And yeah, just all of my childhood memories are, sailing places. So the trip that two year trip, you actually, do you remember much of that? When you, if you're six months old, you probably don't remember.

I don't remember a lot, but I actually made a, I was when I was at school, I did a, like a many student DACO type thing on it, and there was lots of super eight footage and lots of slide slides and stuff. I put together a bit of a a story and interviewed everyone actually on video. So we've got that, which is pretty cool.

So yeah, I remember it more through photos and stories. But it's interesting, like just learning to walk on the boat and that just being in the ocean for a lot of time, I know you can't, I have to get in the water weekly at least or else I just start going crazy. Yeah, that's that just is what it is. So that's interesting. Do you think that learning to walk on a boat helped you with having better balance or being used to being on, on, yeah, definitely for sailing and maybe for other sports too, because that just feeling the way the water's moving and being used to it.

And I think that's the way with a lot of, the traditional navigators, they just grew up in that way of being on the water and fishing and stuff. And yeah, that's definitely something that I guess yeah, that they say that your brain gets pretty wide in the first, five to seven years.

So I think all of those real early experiences, as I think with top surface, they get into that when they're really young, they have a, quite an advantage, I think. Yeah, for sure. That's interesting. So do you get seasick at all or you're never really got seasick. Yeah. That probably has something to do with the two that you're just used to.

You said that I love it. I love, the rougher. It gets the more fun I love being out on the ocean, that's. Yeah. Cool. So what are your earliest memories of like being in the ocean or in the surf or like doing like kind of water, sports, like surfing or for me, it's really sailing.

We did a little bit of playing around in the surf more body surfing, really. When I was young, we didn't really have surfboards. We used to just play in the surf, but we were more, more silent. We were off on styling and benches, that's, that was really, up until I went on my own adventures in my teens, I was just with my family.

Going, sailing around New Zealand. And then later on in life, we did a lot of missions back out into the Pacific with dad and his friends, silent tool sorts of, interesting places. And then personally, for me, when I got right into whitewater kayaking, actually when I was in my teens, I was really influenced by a teacher at one of my schools who was a real whitewater, kayaking, fanatic.

And yeah we try and really have, we didn't want what a slalom at team one, all of New Zealand titles for the whitewater slalom competitions, and got seriously into that trial and the New Zealand team. There were a couple of really good guys, so I never got into that team, but. Really dug it.

And then we had ourselves off of waterfalls and in our late teens and early twenties and a couple of my good friends who have gone on to become, world-class kayakers. And then I got into, I got bitten by the wind surfing bug at university, so really transitioned, kayaking into wind surfing.

And I was lucky enough to go wind surfing and Raglan. Cause I was at uni at Waikato doing a science degree and Ragland's, a short drive. And so yeah, we used to Skype off lectures when it was windy and go wind surfing. And that was great. And had a good friend near James court.

Who's won an NZ, its best windsurfers. And he was at uni with me doing a science degree as well. And so we used to yeah. Spend a lot of time out in Raglan when surfing. That was really where I got into the wave side of things more than through surf. And this was like in the 1990s or around what time?

1990s. Yes. So I guess late, late eighties, I really got into windsurfing. And then at uni, 1990 to 95, we were probably windsurfing as much as uni scraped through my degree. So much time on the water. Yeah, that sounds very similar to my, my background too. I got into wind surfing and that's how I ended up being, coming to Hawaii and going to the city here and stuff.

But and then what happened next? Like how did you transition from wind surfing to the other water sports that you do now? Yeah. So when say a thing and then got right into sup rotted the early days on a sale, we were on a sailing trip actually to tie. W we did a whole big Pacific mission and about 2005 or 2006 I'm with my parents, with my dad at the time.

And we were meeting up with some friends of hers who had been doing a big multi-year circumnavigation of the globe. And we caught up with those guys in Tahiti. And we were, while we were inside Hadia, big south swell came or Southwest swell, and we went, okay let's go down and have a look at Chapo.

And we had peddled out, not obviously known Adelaide, but he was peddling out on this giant. Must've been 11 plus foot sat gun before anyone else was even really doing it and caught a couple of waves at Chopra, and we were sitting in the channel watching I'm too scared to try and go surf it for sure.

And yeah, I was just like, that is epic. That's just, he just peddled out from the beach. Like everyone else came out on boats. A couple of guys pedaled out from the beach, there are a couple of the local stations, but most guys were on boats and I just was super cool. He took his last wave and over the reef and paddled in and I'm dislike.

Ah, that's, we've got to get into that. So it came back, there's no deer around and we just grabbed some old Wednesday and made some got, cause I was into kayaking. So it just fit with my kayaking history. So we just made a couple of pedals, started peddling around on them and we didn't really know what we were doing.

And we caught a few waves here and there and was just, we're just having great fun paddling around on these things. And From there actually really took off as a sport. And then I got right into it and there was some events in Hawaii. The battle of the pedal Waikiki actually was was on.

And I was like, okay, we're gonna go and have a go at this. And yeah, I had a blast like that. And it was yeah, for that one, I think they only had that one time, the Waikiki battle of the power. It only happened once, maybe a couple of times, maybe twice. Yeah. It was pretty cool. A lot of local prize our member battling car around that one, but he was only about 13.

That was the last chance I got to battle with him after he was just killed everyone. Yeah. Yeah. I still remember a race where I beat Connor Baxter, but that was, I think he was like 12 or something. Yeah. Yeah. That's right. Yeah. So then sup really got me to Hawaii and then spent, I made a mission from about 2011.

I think that was the battle of the pedal in 2011 Waikiki. I could be wrong, but check those dates and then. Yeah. Every year, since then just spent New Zealand new. Zealand's a fantastic place. Winter is a pretty long though. So yeah. Had a mission to try and get out of  for the winters for a couple of months in Hawaii, if I could, or, Samar or Fiji Corso is fantastic from New Zealand, much, much easier to get to, but I guess Hawaii is, the epicenter of the surf world.

And there's a good reason for that. The conditions are amazing. The people are amazing and you just learn much faster with any of those, with any activity, really, if you're around the best in the world, you just learn faster, so it was just a learning experience for me and got right into it. And then through all that time, I got right into kite surfing as well.

So the Wednesday thing transitioned into the kite surfing and yeah, so cutting and subbing. I was just doing that as much as I could. Funding it in any way possible. I was still working a bit in the film industry doing underwater photography in New Zealand and then doing odd jobs for cash when I was out and about.

So that was your main income was photography and doing, yeah. So through that I'd done a bunch of paperwork with some various organizations, film schools and stuff, and ended up working in the New Zealand film industry, doing underwater camera work. And that was great fun because it suited me, we were in the water again and filming, but it still New Zealand film industry is really up and down and especially something as specific as water shooting, it's not really consistent work.

So it was good. I managed to get lots of time to go off and do my through my passion, really, which. Yeah, get in the water paddling or cutting. Cool. Yeah, I remember you came by the sh our shop on ward avenue. I dunno, maybe six years ago or five or six years ago. And you had your first, or one of your first foil prototypes of the Armstrong full and you were showing it to me and stuff like that.

But I think that was like, before you even started production on them or anything, you can't, that was actually the first batch out of the first production mold. Just, it was like a production sample and we were just getting ready. So yeah, we had bicycle. You were one of the fist people, actually we went to say and say, Hey, we got some spoils.

You guys are gonna need bees. I was pretty impressed by the, like the whole design and stuff, like how the fuselage goes through the mass and stuff. It's pretty unique. At that time, I don't think anybody had anything similar. And then, but so you got into foiling through kiting, is that right?

Or yeah, so we go into foiling through kiting basically quite foil racing and kite foiling has been around a little bit longer than some of the others cottage. The cottage took it up a little bit earlier. I think, really falling has been around for ages with initially with Mike Murphy and then rush Randall and lit and Dave Kalama and pick your brain are in a Robbie nation.

All that crew, really took it on and Hawaii. Totally. To try and deal with the wind bump and all of that sort of cool history. And the Cod is took it on, a little bit, later, but earlier than, most of the other recent uptake anyway. And so we were doing a lot of cutting and cut for them was just the normal thing to do.

And we just jumped on that and we were breaking everything we did. Funnily enough, late again, to knock and Reagan for the ultimate water man event. And I was actually doing some camera work on that for a promo that they did with led towing in, out on the points in Ragland. I was living in Ragland at the time and Daniel Kyoko, who then went on to win the first ultimate water man.

He was driving the jet ski. I was on the back filming with late. And I think Terry Chung came down correct me if I'm wrong. I'm pretty sure. And he was telling with lead at some yeah. At Raglan and I would get. Really long wipes, like a couple of minutes long maybe. And we were like, okay we were cutting following at the time when we all like, actually, this is these guys.

I know these guys have been doing it for a long time, but that was the first time we'd seen proper foiling and proper waves life. And it just blew all of us away. We were just like, wow, that's that looks like too much fun. We're going to have to do that. And so we got out on our kite foils and pretty much broke all of them doing that.

So we were like, okay, that's that D is not, it's not going to work. So we're going to have to stop making R and D and that was it. Yeah. I think I remember seeing I'm going to, I'm going to screen share this video that I remember watching

Yeah. So there was some, a bunch of helicopter footage. That's right. This was a promo for the ultimate water man and this, the water shots. So that one, and then there's a couple of other water shots later on. I shot them on the back of the ski with Daniel. So that's obviously the heli shot. And then there's one where led, comes past a man.

That's actually a heli shot too, but then you can see on the jet ski. Yeah. That's me and Daniel. And that's one of our shots there. That's pretty epic. Yeah. Yeah. So that was, obviously a good Diane rags. It was no one out surfing. It was a bit too lumpy, this outsides. So yeah, lad was the first person to really get involved in, outsides properly, foiling rags.

And for him, obviously this isn't necessarily massive surf, but it's still a pretty solid day. He's charging us to turn our member. He was like, so close to putting the foil out there. I know, in front of the lip, I've led sleds, a unique individual, as we all know. So trust him to really, open up our thoughts processes.

So yeah, we were jumping in the water, filming the stuff, and this was the promo for the ultimate water man. Yeah. And his masses is that the stainless steel mask? This one's, I'm pretty sure it's an alloy rig. Very basically probably a Mike Murphy Tiba and with GTN, with. I dunno, lead would have built with someone in Hawaii, I don't know the full story of a rig. Except that yeah, we were just like, ah that's too much fun. We're going to have to, we're going to have to get into it. And then we did, we got onto it after that and broke everything we had. And so then we were like, okay, we just have to start making stuff.

So you actually started with Cohen foiling out or cutting. And then we saw that and then we started towing because it just was like, mind-blowingly fun looking. We didn't realize at the time how hard it was. So we just got thrashed and broke all that kite gear. And out in the city, first of all, we started rebuilding the kite gear cause we broke it all and named, we were like, hang on a minute.

The stuff we are, we've rebuilt some wings, we rebuilt some fuselages and some masks and we sit actually we've made it stiffer with made it stronger. It feels better to run. Let's actually make a whole of whole foil set. And then we're really lucky in New Zealand. We've got a lot of really smart boat designers and boat builders.

And I had some connections in that area too. And so we just started making our own rigs and pretty much I hand-built our first foil wings, just with some templates that we made up a little bit like making a big fan, really. We just, hand-making a fin, we made some templates, we made some foil sections.

We mapped it out on some paper and we translated that on some blocks of wood, we stuck all that together. And then we laminated it and tried it and went, okay, that worked and we wanted to make it a bit different. So we tried a different foil section, took the grind to it a few times until we had something that we thought actually worked pretty well.

And then we scan that and then did some cat on it and that became our first.

So that was the process. And in terms of the system development I was really interested through, spending a lot of time on the boat, on fittings that didn't didn't corrode. And titanium as a real top end material for not having galvanic corrosion, especially with cabin and it's light and strong, and it's just a, a really nice material and the ocean, because once the part is made, it doesn't really change.

So I was really interested in using that technology and that led us down various rabbit holes to, and we ended up yeah. And basically you're the sister from the very beginning, you add that the design was the titanium shrouded with carbon fiber and in a mold or, and then so basically the basic design of your fuselage and the mass fitting and stuff, hasn't really changed.

It's still the same as the original foil. You told me that. And that was where we spent a lot of time. We got some pretty good design advice at the time on some of the dimensions. The reason for the Hicks inside the round. We wanted round because I really think round on the fuselage is pretty important for not changing the flow when the fuselage goes through different angles.

So the flow doesn't change, to the, around the fuselage, to the back wing. If you got a small square or rectangular fuselage, when you put it on an angle, it changes the flow around that saw. I was really interested in that. And if you look at the. Fish and bottom brackets on boats and keel bulbs and everything.

Nothing squid, no one's making anything square fish. There's no square fish, really. So I was like, okay, let's go round. And then to fit inside around a hex as a really good shape, because you can put the two together and you get a similar thickness around the outside of it, which means when you do your layouts, you can wrap the fiber right around that.

Which is, what we do in our molds. So the fibers come all the way down from the top of the mast wrap around the bottom bracket and then go back up, which is pretty tricky layout to do. But that's the key point to giving it that feeling and unlocking, locking in the feeling into the mask, which is yeah.

What we've spent quite a lot of time developing that layup and we're happy with it and Hey, this. It's always a balance. You can make something stiffer, but then you're going to lose it, lose some fields. So there's that balance. And it depends a little bit on the conditions. If you're really going out in big waves, then yet there is something in a stiffer setup.

And I think like you say, lead may well be using stainless or solid LOE master or something for the really big waves, but we're not really trying to make gear at this point for people to toe in it Mazur. And it's epic. Those guys have done it. They're BYOD mix level for sure. But what we're trying to do.

Gifts make something that has a real nice surf feeling when you're doing a tune on a head highway, that's really the goal. And then obviously Wingdings come along and whinging it is, to me, it's like going back to windsurfing. It's awesome. It was a beautiful blend of windsurfing and cutting to me winging puts the two together and this way, and it brings foiling really to anyone that's the beauty of whinging because you're, you've got the balance with the wing, which is a lot like the windsurf rig, but you don't have the mask.

So it's lighter and easier to handle. You don't have that pool issue. You haven't got the strings like the cot and it allows you to have that balance point on the foil. So really with winging, in decent when anyone can foil and that's where I think the future, isn't a, Hey, I'm not alone in that one.

Yeah, for sure. And this is a wing filing show but and like for me when wing filing started, I was doing more standup foiling or, prone, foiling and stand up racing and stuff like that. But ever since I started wink, filing, that's almost all I do now. So how is it for you?

Like how much time do you spend on a wing foil board versus other sports? Yeah. We still cut for the little bit because coding's a really good way to test gear because you're independent. You can go pretty fast and you can like quickly change gear and go back out and feel it wonderings pretty good tasting gear as well.

And then we tow, I do quite a lot of towing into down one. Cause I think riding bumps down wind on bigger foil, especially when you're fishing with bigger foils is a great way to see how they turn. I'm really interested in foils trying to make foils that turn really. That combination of pump efficiency and turning so pull it towing into bumps down wind and yeah.

We used to paddle and we still do pedal on a little bit on the really windy days with the SA. We don't have conditions in New Zealand really where you can chip in and ride the coast down one like an like in Hawaii which is awesome to see that some of the top surfers doing that as a cross training thing, I really influenced by Kyle I'd say, but yeah, the down wind for them, we do a little bit of that.

But for testing gear really towing, you can't beat the amount of time you get on the foil, and so for me, the problem is with making gear and my past. Robbie who really drummed the send to me at the, after our first machine, we were accountable over the place, making all sorts of different things.

You've got to just change one thing at a time, which, whether that be a tail angle a tail section, whatever it is, you have to keep everything else. The same, the board, the mass position, the front wing, the fuselage link, every other element you need to keep the same so that otherwise you don't really know what your progression is or what's happening.

And so we keep a note of each rig we've tried and then change one thing at a time. And then you actually have an idea of what you've done and what is affecting things. And then you can make progress and it's, it does two things. I, it means you can't just dump to some whole mix level immediately. It's a progression.

And the other thing is it takes quite a lot of time on the water, through that even coming into like most of my winging sessions, I'll even choose the location. Based on how easy it is to come in to change something out and go back out again. And sometimes they'll go positions just for fun, but oftentimes if there's a boat ramp nearby or, an easy place to come in and out, I'll choose that spot because then I can come, run with the tail at a certain angle, change it half a degree, go back out for half an hour, come back and change it.

Half a degree, you go back out and, get that balance and feeling and hopefully make some progress. Yeah. Cool. Yeah. I totally agree with that one changing one thing at a time. That's the way to do it, but I guess for the last two months, I always hard for you to test anything if you couldn't.

We had, I think it was seven weeks of being allowed on the water. And yeah, really frustrating. But luckily Rob was out of the country. He was, he went to hood river and stuff. So he was doing basically a foil testing at that time. And we've got some great team riders now, too.

So there's a lot of feedback now coming from team riders. That's, it's almost too much sometimes. It's great really though. There's a lot of Intel coming in, but the hottest thing with team rod is us asking him to change just one thing at a time. Cause they never do some are better than others, but everyone's got great opinions and that's really starting to feed into, what we're developing and how we're developing it.

The new four geometry boards. Was really a passion project for me, but we got a lot of input from our team writers that really helped with that whole development process. Yeah, it's been really fun. I actually wanted to ask you. You went from being like a traveling videographer or, like on a shoestring budget to having like an international brand that's like worldwide and a lot of growth, obviously.

And, as a business owner I know to grow, like that takes a lot of money and capital and good people and stuff like that. So can you talk a little bit about that process? Like how did you do it? How did you pull that off and how were you able to, finance it and how did you do that?

Yeah, it's a pretty, it's a pretty long, interesting story. I guess really when it started happening, I got really lucky with, Rob Woodell coming on, he's a super smart guy. And I was getting into foiling at the same time with me and really saw a future in what we were doing. And he was, my initial kind of partner.

And then we brought in Andrew McGregor and Bryce Rhodes who are, super keen surfers and, SOP athletes and also successful business people. So they really bought some key business knowledge to it. And through those early days I ended up doing some work for some surfboard factories in Asia.

At the end of the sub game, I ended up going to Asia and helping doing some quality control. And also from my boat find did a bit of boat-building, on the side as well. Obviously I'd always been involved with my grandfather, built boats, been involved with that when you're dealing with boats, there's always something to do.

And so there's always maintenance with boats, some kind of sanding or laminating or painting or whatever it may be. And so through that background and building a bunch of sat boards and stuff like that, I ended up going and working in a factory. And at the time I tried to sit up actually a sub-brand and I went to the last Pacific paddle games with the range of boards actually.

But they were, I was probably behind the curve on that one, but what I did do through that process was ended up working in in some surfboard factories, helping them improve their cabin layout techniques. So yeah, I spent a bunch of time in Asia, in surfboard factories over a period of three years.

And so when I put my friends together who were backing the full project with, my contacts with the surfboard factories, that's really where we were at grew from. So I was just lucky right place, right time. And we got into it at the right time. I think that video you play with lead was instrumental timing it, put us.

We got right into it a little bit early. And I changed my focus from sup completely to foiling and that's just all we were trying to make. And yet to be honest, our first few foil boards were pretty wild and it was just an experimental, time. And we, they worked. But yeah, for sure they needed to be improved, but that was, the process that everyone was in at the time.

And I was just lucky that we met, we got to make some, and we got to make some foils and we got them out on the market at a time when it was just taking off. And so from there we grew it and I'm just really lucky with a lot of people that we met along the way. Yeah. Nice. And then and then Rob widow basically helped you with, I interviewed him as well for that ozone interview, but it's able to help you finance it, or, how it's I know any girl fast, it's always, the money goes out faster than it comes in, right?

Yeah. It's quite funny how much it costs to just keep the ball rolling. It's definitely a learning experience for me, but yeah. So Rob obviously invested at the early days Andrew and Bryce, who I've mentioned, they invested and yeah, we got the thing rolling. Started getting the product out there and started getting a bit of traction because there weren't a lot of good options that were easy.

We've really, it's lucky not being a super product. I'm okay. But I'm Mo I'm very far from a pro, so I want to make stuff that's easy to ride. That's really been one of my focuses. And so that was, that fitted the market at the time. Cause everyone was learning and that, that was a good Bush and saw then scaling it up.

That's the biggest issue. Like you say, that does cost a lot of money. So scaling up to distribution and we made some stuff in New Zealand and it was really hard to just shipping out of New Zealand is a real killer. The logistics from here are really is really tricky.

And I had these contexts in the circle factories up there. And while I was up there, I actually met a really interesting guy on a beach in China, Austin, Kirk, who is a American guy. That's spent a lot of time doing business in Asia. And he had some friends who were, really top business guys and the cell phone pots industry.

And we were at the time trying to scale up to meet the global demand that was taking off. And it's really tricky to understand those economics, these economies, those economies of scale, global distribution. It's a complicated game if you haven't got that system or process in place. And yeah, we basically spent a lot of time working with those guys to improve our manufacturing.

And that really is where we got ourselves to the next level and we ended up effectively partnering with those guys on the supply chain side. So the manufacturing we had much better control of the materials we were using. The. The delivery schedules and the quality control. And so that was, that's been instrumental.

It was I guess there's no one thing it's a whole lot of things all coming together and, I just feel really lucky that it came together at the time that it did and where we're able to stay afloat. Yeah, no, it's really impressive how quickly you grew the business, and to become one of the leading brands.

Yeah. I don't know. I might hope maybe we're a leading brand. I hope we are. We definitely try hard to, do what we say we're doing and we're making the gear as best we can. We do spend a lot of money on materials. It's slightly crazy. I had a Aussie businessmen recently who we're, who has some distribution and all Aussie.

He was like, you guys are crazy. You need to spend less money on your gear and, you'd have a bit of business case, but. To me, I dunno, where we're just sticking true to our original design theory. And we wanted to make gear with materials that were as good as we could afford to make it with.

And yeah, we're, that's where we're not really compromising. So it's it's always a juggle and business. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. But that's what Rob, Rob bill was saying that too, if you're really into the sport you're not that concerned about the price. It's more like you want to have the best equipment you can have.

It's not. Yeah. That's your main concern is the quality of the equipment more than the cost or the price of it. Yeah. And there's definitely something that comes with Different materials. There's a fail. There's the way it lasts. There's the way it performs. There's a whole bunch of things.

And so for us, whether it's boards, foils, client wings, any of it we're trying to use the best materials we can. And, it's a really interesting process. Especially when you scale up just, and in the current market to getting hold of materials. As that's where we got really lucky with our supply chain partners, because even just managing to maintain supply in the current global economy is really interesting.

But challenging thing to do. And to be honest, if it was just me, yeah, it'd be, it wouldn't be working. So I've got really good partners and that's on the business. Yeah, that's the key to it is having the right people doing the right job. I guess there's a real psychology in life. And I try to, there's some inspir, inspiring character, I think will Smith, he's a great actor, but an interesting character.

He talks a lot about, you've got to employ the people who are really talented at the things that. And that's what you need to do for the universe. You, your, you do what you're good at, and you employ people who are good at doing the things they are good at. And in the long run, it all works out better because people are doing, their passion and what they're good at.

And yet you've got to spread everything out when you do that, but that's just, I think that's, to me how things work and that's how we've made it work anyway. Yeah. So what would you say is your job description that Armstrong foil is now? My job is basically I'm the lead product development.

And then Rob basically is my main like advisor. He's pretty smart guy and he's been making products in this sort of game. I need to talk to Rob, from the hang-gliding days. A lot of wind design knowledge there. And then apart from. I've got, I'm the passion engine, where, trying to hit us in the right direction.

And then we're filling out our team on all the other fronts logistically because that's, my forte is not global logistics at all, and it's still a challenge, but it's been really interesting. And I get involved, we have, open meetings and process on that, but we're, to be honest, we're finding our way to a certain extent as well, but we do have, Andrew's really in charge of the sales and business admin side of it.

And then we've got a great inside account management sales team who are really on top of immediate communications, and that it's yeah. Having a global. Network means you've got to be on top of communications, 24 7. And at the time differences and stuff that it's hard to communicate with everybody live.

Yeah, that's right. So you've got to, you gotta be able to have a T it's about the whole thing is it's a team. It's a team process and it's, yeah, it's really fun to be a paddle. Cool. So let's talk a little bit about your the equipment. When you went back to your website, your, so we just got a shipment at our shop of your new boards.

So can you tell us a little bit about these new winks up boards? Yeah. So the forge geometry wing sat range I'd spend. A lot of time hanging out with the America's cup sailors. And obviously the America's cup was on in New Zealand last year. And I was just looking at how those guys set up their geometry of the boats.

And, they put the, their main foils in the middle of the boat at the center of gravity. And I'm like those guys are pretty smart, guys. Why do they do that? Like, why is the foil in the center of gravity of the book? And there are a lot of reasons for that for basically efficiency of lifting and not labor ridging things up.

And so we played with it a lot and we decided an actual fact. We want to give people the option of putting the foil a lot for the Ford and the board, because then you can have a board that feels like a much smaller board to ride, but it has more waterline length to get you up. And. Because we also want to ride, smaller, and smaller foils because they're faster and more responsive.

And so if you move the foil further and the board and your body further on the board, you've got the feeling of a smaller board, but you got the water line length to get you going. And in the water line, link out the back end, we got rid of the the cutaway on the back of the board because we just want to maximize the board waterline linked to get you up and going as, as early as possible.

So everything about the house shape was about getting up and going with the laced energy so that people could ride effectively a smaller board and a smaller failing board. Then we, we did a bunch of other things. We might've really deep cockpit, which does come from a lot from this. Rice board design.

There's a drain, which is also the handle both sides. And the reason we recessed the cockpit is that it's got quite a nice feeling. There is a slight convicts in the middle, and then it goes up to the, the rails and the closer you are to the foil, the more responsive everything is.

The board thickness is just like adding a longer mask effectively to your foil. So dropping that recess means it brings you closer to the foil and has a really nice, more direct feel to the foil. But then you need some volume somewhere. So we have these, high sided rails. That's just about it.

And then we got a pretty decent nose kick nose kicked Mike, Murphy's doing some work with us on the white foil market and all of those skis from the sit down guys, they all have massive nose rocker, right? And those guys are landing jumps all the time. And it's just way more forgiving if you've got a bit more nose rocker and a slightly wider nose, which is why we went to the chisel nose so that it's more forgiving for, plannings.

And then the final thing really with the shaping elements is that wider nose allows you to really straighten all the lines on the boards. So the rails and the Chinese are really straight and we just felt that help with the board accelerating off the water surface.

So what size board do you ride? Mostly? I'm lucky. I have three boards and my vans depends on the day. If the wind's light I'll ride the 88 liter, I'm 90 kgs. So I'll read the 88 liter as my light when board and I can trot around on that pretty much in no wind I'm with the five and a half or a six and a half and get going at the slightest gas cause you're already standing and we do get a lot of shifty light, wind days, especially in the summer here.

So that's great for testing the bigger gear. And then obviously if I'm stopping, I'll use a bigger body as a hundred liter board, if I'm stepping. So I'm Mani kgs. I'm not, I used to be better at stopping. I used to be able to sit pedal assist was the same volume as my weight, but now I go up 10, 10 liters.

So I ride them on a nine liter board when I'm, if I'm stopping. Yeah, sorry. That's what it's going to be four boards, but the sup doesn't isn't in the van a lot, these days, mostly it's the wind kit. Then for the NFL, if you want a lot, when boat that you can stop. Yeah. You need to go a few liters over your weight, probably.

And then my all rounders, the 50 liter, the 50 or the 60, I really liked the 60 as well, but I'm using the 50 at the moment because I've got my stats pretty doll on that. I need about 12 minutes. I can get going on the 50 liters here to have that photo there. That's the 50 liter. That was a lot.

That was a classic station actually on Malik. Yeah, we had a really fun, it was the Mo a lot Brightwell not the main waver Elia, cause the surface we sell over there, but the surface are all like go away. And so we're like, yeah. Okay. We're back to the break wall. And we probably would've got munched anyways, but we read off for when they're right.

Yeah. Straight off shore. Yeah. It was super fun station. And that's the beauty with winging. You can ride off shore like offshore sessions. I've had such great officers say you have to be a little bit careful that you, Alicia is really well set up and you got a good board leash, a good kite leash. But if there's some good waves you can really off shore sessions are so fun with winging and that's something that we never did with kiting.

And even when surfing Dade off shore is tricky about what the wing you can just fully deep power it and ride straight up when. But you're getting back to the board choices set in the 50 liters, my old round at the moment I need 12 knots or more. And then if it's proper windy, I like the 34 liter four, five.

And that's because it's really nice to jump. It's just, smaller and more nimble in the air. But you need proper winds. So if it's 18 knots plus, and really good wind, then I'll ride the four or five. Okay, cool. Talk a little bit about the handle. This is pretty unique that I think you're the only ones making a handle that goes all the way through the board.

Yeah. So no idea what that was. Yes. So having a handled top and bottom was obviously a good thing and. To save, right? Like traditional handles are, they definitely add white to a board and we had this really deep recess and I'd played with a lot of rice sups with Vince and the cockpit.

And I actually had my race. I should dig out the photo for you. At some point, I made a rice up for the 2018 Molokai to Oahu, which was the first foil downwind, the vent on the Molokai. And that one had a really deep cockpit and it had Vince as well. And so I, one of the veins and the deep cockpit board, and then it just came together.

We make the water drain a handle. So that goes all the way through. So you got your handle top and bottom and. For the cockpit and obviously the cockpit joins out the back as well, but you just want to make sure that the water completely clear. So if you've got such a big cock, but it makes sense to have an event.

So the handle on the bottom is a little bit further back than on the deck. Is that correct? Yeah, it's on an angle. So the handles on an angle the reason for that is to help with water evacuation and also reduce the drag on the, so the I maybe it's pretty minor, but at the, on the bottom, because the handles on an angle, it's not a square surface hitting the water.

It's actually an angled surface at the back of the handle. So whether that makes any difference, I don't know. It's a pretty tiny detail. You ever get water splashing up out of the board when you're like on the surface of it's funny, even landing really big jumps. If you get a video shot of it. Yeah.

When you bouncing the board off, the water comes through there, but you don't notice that I've never, I've landed pretty big jumps on that board and I've never noticed the water splashing up and hitting me in the face. Interesting. So let's talk a little bit about your the wing. Oh, I guess the wing surf and then I guess these are for winging and surfing then.

Yeah. Yep. Yeah. So the smaller boards are more assist shape. There's something you can paddle in, or like I was saying a wing the 34 and, as smaller team riders cache Breezhaler and Tatiana grant now when, you know the 4 0 27 liter board Skyrim or w SIF pedals in the four. Oh. And he's a pretty big guy, but he's a great surfer and he can obviously serve the 27 liter board.

I don't see for board that low volume. So if I'm paddling in I'll actually use the 14 I'm at 39 liters. Cause I'm not a great SIF Wheeler. I'm not a great surfer. I never really grew up surfing, so I need all the help I can get. And the four has got way more paddle, but yeah, that those photos that'll be the four of Mateo and Tatiana are on there.

Yeah, so they've got a foot strap option, so you can wing him with straps. But they're also really good for SIF falling on towed air and yeah, they're basically a good all around board. Nice. Yeah. Okay, cool. Yeah. Thanks for that. little rundown on your boards. And then let's talk about your the foils.

I guess you just released a new foil, actually. Let me, wait, let me pull that up for you have two new foils that are just got released recently. So you want to tell us a little bit about these two new designs? Yeah, so we're just expanding the highest big foil range is actually going to be, six foils in that range.

Pretty exciting too, to fill out the range and we've done it step by step because every saw, different sizes actually need a slightly different detail. And some of those details are pretty important. Geometric or aerodynamic twist is got to be adjusted per size. And so that's a pretty big tuning element.

And like we got back to, changing one thing at a time. It takes quite a long time to, to tune in those changes. And so you have to make one, try it a few times, compare it to the other one, go backwards and forth, and then, adjusted again and, trying to get something that has that, the ultimate pump and glide, and you can turn like those are the.

The big elements. And so we're really stoked with the way out. Our bigger foils will tend, we can, you can get on a wave and you can actually, throw them around. And ultimately the ha range is is a high performance wing range, but then rippers like Mateo and stuff like he's on the 7 25 and that photo that you're the white gods, smaller guys waking that be doing crazy things on those, because they're just so much faster and you can pump from miles and that sort of stuff.

So that the there ultimately, or the range, it's a pretty similar feeling to the size. And it depends on your body size a lot. So that's why we've got the range. Obviously, once you get down to the smaller foils that we will be releasing very soon, the 5 25 and the massive one, the 1525. That's all about expanding the range for the different size of riders.

So the 5 25, it's going to be more caught foil really but the 7 25 smaller rippers and mine, 25 average size rippers, 1125 larger grippers in the 1325. And the 1525 are like your light wind performance foils or, bigger rappers who want to, get out there and pump around or down window, whatever.

So when you downwind a foil, which for the use, which I'm mostly on the 1125 and 90 kgs, but I'm okay at keeping it up to speed. I find the 9 25 is too small for me actually. But if you're a lighter guy, 1125 is going to be too big. But that's, if you're talking. Good guys who have got some pretty good skill.

If you're in really small bumps though, then I are using right now, I'm using the 1325. If it's small and I'm telling him, downwind but if it's windy enough to peddle up on a set, then I can run the 1125. Cause that's on the go when it's howling. So yeah, down one thing down, one thing, an interesting, it has a question for you.

How do you see down winning? Cause it's an interesting one for me. Like I got into it, like we were down winning the Nepali 2017 under the Nepali rice downwind on a foil. And then the year later was the  2016. I went to the goal. Before anyone had even tried to do a Dauman rice on a foreign car was down winning obviously.

And in Maui and stuff, I went, I did the Gorge dam and pedal challenge on the foil, came about mid fleet. Cause the first half was all good. And in the second half around the island, I lost the foil and paddled a 10 foot board with the foil on it, pretty slowly. But yeah. Where do you see downwind falling?

I don't know. It's epic fun and I still do it towing in, I don't do a lot of it paddling anymore and I, you do see some of the good guys chipping in and doing down windows in Hawaii, but I don't know where you see downwind and going. For me personally, I really got into for a while, like we were launching us by Portlock China walls and then just going to either Kahala or to, to all the way to Waikiki on know, stand up foiling and kinda, we're getting it, but then the wings came out and then we just it was like so much easier to use a wing and, that's how we started winning is just going on downwinders instead of a paddle, you take the wing, and then it's just easier to get up on the foil and easy to stay on the foil.

And yeah, so I actually stopped doing the downwinders. A lot of guys here on Oahu, do the downwind, like the chipping in the app from also lot of guys go from just like the, from diamond head to Waikiki or whatever, where if you fall in, then you just have to paddle in and catch another way of, You don't go too far out, out of this falls and that, yeah, and they just like tiny surf foil boards and really making it look fun.

But I haven't really gotten into that myself and this, it just seems like a lot of work if you fall in especially if, if you do a longer run and you start at China walls, if you fall in and you got like a two hour pallets again to get back. Yeah. Pretty much. Yeah. I think some guys are doing that.

I don't know. Hey, it's great training if you're a pro athlete. Yeah. So now it's an issue. It'll be interesting to see how it develops. I think what about the downwind suck foiling? Are you seeing a lot of guys doing that still or is that type it off a bit? So I, I think same thing and there's this less people doing it since the advent of wind foiling.

And or even that many people doing it to start with, just cause it's so challenging, but I think with the foils getting more efficient. It being easier to get up on foil at I think, maybe it will change and I, I should get back into too, but I just, yeah, when it's windy, I need to get into it too, after too much lockdown, too much locked down cake.

But what I'm excited about is this wing foiling and riding waves on the wing photo board too, and dislike doing those long carving turns and stuff like to me, that's super fun and jumping. Yeah. And I guess that's the thing with winging, it's taken over because like you say, it's so easy to get in and out and you just get so much foil time.

It's maximum bang for buck and yeah, it has it's 80%, 80% of what I do now is on a wink for sure. And it's just the user-friendliness of wings. Kiting, I've cutting, always has required, a lot of beach space to set up and cuttings is still a great sport in the right conditions.

Like howling onshore Cotting is still if it, but I don't know, you just can get out with the wing and it's so user-friendly in locations where you just can't go, with traditional cutting or even windsurfing gear and date off shores, and it's got more bottoming than windsurfing.

Wednesday. A thing is great when it's also howling, but in lighter wind, you can get going with the foil and the wing and really be tapping into waves that no one's writing. Yeah, that's true. Like we can foil wing file and much lighter conditions. Our, wind surfers could go out to, but they're not barely moving.

They, it takes them forever to get back out, to catch the next. Yeah, I know we were just like flying back and forth. So let's talk a little bit about the wings I'm like your wing development and stuff like that. So can you talk a little bit about what, what the view on and the changes you made to the V2 and so on?

Yeah, sure. So basically V1 I just wanted maximum power out of the wing. And so we really went for lodge, diameter, leading edge, and a really deep section which does give you a lot of bottom end power. And that rigidity that you get from the larger diameter tubes really helps with, the bottom in juice of the wing.

And to me, I really liked, driving the 10 50 to eight 50, the nine to five, and now the 700. With the Lang. And so you need that bottom in juice to get going on a smaller board out of the hole. So that's really what informed the main shape parameters of the wing, which really is large tubes.

And then we've got a tight leech, really tight leech, which means we have to keep that lodge diamond are going quite close to the tips because that gives that sail, that real grunt, that real low and grunty feeling. And there's two sides to that. One is just that simple, low in grant to get you out of the hole on the smaller boredom foil.

But it also means you can ride a half size or even a size down from most other wings. I ride the four or five when most people are riding a five or a five and a half, or even a six sometimes, and the five hour, five and a half hours as a guarantee, when it makes like a six or a six and a half, most of the guys bought it has a slightly more compact span for that size because it's got the really deep profile.

So there's a plus and minus with every design choice you make. But that deep profile really gives them a lot of bottom end. And that's the, I guess the biggest thing that people don't quite realize with our wings is that you need to ride, at least half a meter down on what you think. So if you're thinking of five let's at four and a half, if you're thinking six sets are five and a half really.

And the three and a half, we use that quite a lot, down to 18 knots. And that's, it's more really the grunt of a, for. Yeah. So now the thing we did is we extended our range. We've got the two and a half and the six and a half, and the vetoes we improved the handles the profile is not quite as deep.

So we changed the profile is not quite as deep as the V1, so it has a bit more top end. And it, it floats a bit, bit more nicely and we've beefed up all the reinforcements basically on the V2. It's is it the beef that beliefs you've got a photo on the screen right now there we've got an extra butter webbing that ties right back to the Strat because I was in the surf and rip the leading edge out of a couple of wings.

I'm getting wrangled in the surf. High of reality is if you get red dot on the SIF, something right. That's just life. Trying to try to beef up these things, the handles are all way grunts here and stiffer on the vatos. Yeah. That's, those are the main things. Yeah. If I can make a comment, like for this seam right here underneath the handle, I had a little cut on my finger and they kept scratching.

Like when I got back winded or like pumping or whatever, I would always get scratched by the seam, this kind of a sharp scene right there. So maybe you should move that somewhere else. Yeah, no, we could for another gram, what I've found with those, because they are handles are rigid and they're off the wing.

I find I don't hit the straw with my hand. And that's, the ha we spent a lot of time, those handles, I spent a ton of time on those handles. And yeah, there are some other, wind guys out there doing a very similar handle. Now I say pulled a pot, what we were doing and did a similar thing because that stiffer handle with a slightly bigger ice To me, it puts your hand and we've got, so the front hand Zillow, they tell that you might not realize a front handles have a bigger rock and the rear handles have a slightly smaller act and that's to help give the wing a little bit more angle of attack and your hands.

So you're not, it balances out your arm links. You don't have to pull them with your back arms so much. And I found that didn't that put my hands off the stress, so they weren't heading the stress, but yeah, for sure. Some sames, if you're, if you hit your fingers on a same, then yet it might graze your fingers.

Yeah. But one thing that, like you mentioned that your, their frame is really stiff. So that's something I really like about the ailing is that it's one of the things I really don't like about some wings that Ben right in the middle, right here with a strut connects to the leading edge when it's not enough right there.

It just tends to like, when you get, when you hit it gusta the whole wing. Yeah, there's two things there. What you can see with that picture. You've got up right now. There, there isn't a ton of dihedral in the middle and that's because our whole wing is designed through actually, when it loads up at you get a bit more dihedral in there naturally, and all of the panels are all Kat and shaped so that when it's loaded, the airframe is really good.

And what you'll find is a lot of wings when they load up, they fold in the middle and you get a lot of crises in the canopy. So our canopy is all set up so that when it's loaded in it, it takes basically, around about 80 kgs of load, pulling someone out of the water. That's when the canopy is actually set to its perfect shape.

And that's where you get that real pole and drive. When it's, when you've got to go. With some load in it when it's completely unloaded yet, doesn't, it doesn't necessarily have that same perfect shape. So it is, it's a balance and that's, we're really trying to, but two things, I'm money kgs and I like a lot of grunt out of the whole to get going.

And I like to jump, so I want something when you jump, when you pull on it, when you're coming down from a jump, but it really holds you and you can land your jumps. A lot of other wins. I find don't have a lot of pop and when you're coming down, they just banned and you haven't got anything. You just crash into the water.

Pretty hard. So yeah, a hundred percent agree with that. Yeah. I find that too, trying to get some, trying to get some grunt into it. And it is a beauty with the inflatable that you can go, large diameter and a lot of that was informed from big, big cut design. So yeah, that's, we're really trying to get going in, on smaller boards with smaller fours, but also I like going out and strong winds.

So I really like how are, the three and a half in the four and a half and the two and a half as well when it's hailing perform when it's really windy, because the thing just feels they really come alive. Our wings when it's, when you've got good wind. And, th there may be some lighter wings out there that are bitter and really light when conditions, but I prefer to have some juice when it's windy. Okay. Cool. We were going pretty long now, but I did want to ask you this question that I always ask everyone is especially during the pandemic, like you were shut down, you said for the last two months and couldn't get on the water.

So when you're having a rough day, what do you do to stay positive or keep your mind in the right place, which is a tricky one. If I'm not getting in the water, I do go slightly crazy. Luckily I've got an awesome lady at the moment and a young Nipper who's three. So that definitely keeps me engaged.

So yeah, it's, I guess it's family time now, I've, I've grown up. I've definitely had some times early on where I was, a little bit, more crazy and probably. As a typical, New Zealand there we used to drink too much for sure. But not nowadays, I'm all full out.

We don't, I don't drink at all. And where yeah, family time, really for me, is it, and yet going for nice hike outside somewhere until the top of a ma among the top of the mountain. That's that's a great thing to do with the family and we'll go to the beach for sunset have a picnic on the beach somewhere.

That's great as well. We could still do that during the lock down, at least as he said to stay away from everyone else, but you could go on the beach and you can go, yeah, you can go to the beach as long as it was within something like a 5k radius of where you lived something like that. If you didn't live near a beach within their bad life, it's funny.

Cause you're in Hawaii. It was the opposite during our set down in the beach. You were not allowed to go on the beach, but you were allowed to go across the beach to go into the water and you're allowed to go in the water. Which I guess makes sense, but I guess it's cause cause our governor is a surfer too, so probably that's why he has to go in the water still.

We got it. We've got to get out prime minister, wind foiling guy, that mission for the summit. Yeah I don't know how the, all the rules work. There's some pretty conflicting ones and it's different everywhere. I dunno everyone has their own take on it. I dunno. Any answers that's for sure. Yeah.

So yeah. So you mentioned you totally stopped drinking alcohol no more. You're like totally. Yep. That's right. That's right. Actually, Kenny mark had got me inspired. He's an inspirational water man on Hawaii and we were there in 2018, I think with Brian Finch on wahoo doing a bit of a photo-shoot when we released the CF 1200 and.

We were there loud. Can you, Micah was trying to foils and he's just such an inspirational character. He's a top go for brighter, but more than that, he's just the top legendary all around water man. Really? And yeah, he was telling me how he's, he's really, I think he was 20 something plus years just totally.

Sobering and on it. And he's such an inspiration. I don't know quite how old he is. He wears his age very well, but he's you wait, he was, I don't know how old, but quite a bit older than me and ripping white hat or, and I'm like, okay, yep. Time to get real. So that was kinda, that was co-op I'm really thankful to him for some inspiration there.

For sure. So would you say that foiling is like an addiction a little bit like, like a drug or definitely but a good addiction because it gets you outside. It's healthy. It's good for fitness. Mon will be great for your bank balance, but Hey, you can't take that stuff with you. And it is for using and really, it's just such a beautiful sensation flying across the water and it is addicting, but it's addicting for all the right.

Okay. Yep, exactly. Do you, like when you get up in the morning, do you have a certain routine, certain things that you do or at the moment? Yeah, changing nappies or getting them ready for the day. And then usually, unfortunately these days it's checking a bunch of emails. It takes a couple of hours which isn't great.

And then I usually try and throw some stretches in there in between, and then you look at the wind and try and get out through some testing or it depends what's going on some days it can be just sitting on the computer all day long these days, which isn't ideal, but that's the reality.

Yeah. Yeah. Luckily today though, there's some brains. Brand new one. Oh yeah. So that's exciting. So you can go on the water right from your backyard there, huh? Yeah. I Maybe, I don't know if the internet will stay on, I'll drag this thing over here and have a look. See if you can see. Yeah, so then beautiful.

Yep. And this is Auckland you're in Oakland, and Oakland city. So yeah. Super lucky. This was a property actually. My parents bought in the 70, so yeah. Pretty lucky to be able to hang out here and yeah, we had to get out, go sailing, go winging or go sailing as well. Yeah. Yeah. We still do a little bit of sailing out of here.

I'm going to try and round that my grandfather built. That's just more out of. And yeah, we can't complain. Life is definitely good. When we're allowed to get on the water, it's hot. We don't get locked down again. I think we're going to be okay now, but I don't know it's yeah. Who knows?

I'm not going to predict anything on that.

Like for me, sometimes I have a really good session and everything like clicks and everything's working perfectly well. And then another time I'll just get frustrated and I keep falling in, or I just make stupid mistakes and stuff like that. And it's just not, it doesn't, I don't get into that zone.

So is, does that happen to you and do you have any tricks for changing from, like going from not being in the zone to getting into that where everything. Yeah. I Some days you just have a bad buyer them day, but generally I find I try and do a, like a, I do a little bit of yoga, so I just do a quick version of a salute to the sun just to warm up and, just 10 50.

So I find that really helps doing some stretches before my session as, just loosen up and then sometimes, if it's really windy, I like getting hyped up with a bit of music, but yeah, generally if you're having a bad session yeah it's good. Just to sit to stop, sit down, take a few deep breaths, have a think about it and then just reset.

But yeah, there's no magic. Some days you just having a bad day and there's not too much, you can do it. Yeah. I find the mental part is pretty important. Like what's going on, use mental self-talk. I think, especially in a race, like the Molokai race, where you're like out on the open ocean for a super long time.

And if you started having negative thoughts or negative self-talk, it's like everything just goes down the drain. So do you have anything to share, like anything like that to share it, but yeah, again, but bringing up those advanced there's long downwind, sup events, and I guess that's the real draw to them, it was great such great mentors. Challenge. It's a great mental challenge, those events. And I really, cause they're, four to five hours, six hours long, depending on the situation you're in, you're out in the ocean pretty much by yourself. And it's this, I guess it's the same as sailing for a long ocean passage to, as a, is a real mental discipline and a process that you've just got to, carry on.

And like you say, you can't let yourself get into a downward spiral of thought. But to me it's really easy because you just look out at the horizon and see the clouds and the ocean. And it's just so beautiful. I, all the art that I've got around is always has sky and water and it, you know what I mean?

You just that's, that is art to me is look at the ocean and you're just like, wow, it's just so beautiful. And usually when you're out for a session and that's the biggest, one of the biggest buzzes for me is just being out, looking back at the land and the waves crashing and the ocean and just it's so beautiful.

That's I'm just feel really lucky to be able to experience that regularly. Cause it is it's mind blowing how beautiful that transition between the ocean and the land does. It's just such a great place to be able to spend time. Yeah, no, I think that's definitely one of the things that attracts me to just being out in the water, just the visual of the colors and the intensity of the, this, everything like the, everything around you is just like bright and energizing Somalia especially in Hawaii.

So you guys are pretty lucky. Definitely lucky. What do you have any tips for beginners getting into wink, filing? What would you rec if you teaching someone how to wait for getting them in? So what do you reckon. Yeah, I guess there's two things you want to spend a bit of time, just on the beach with the wing.

I'm getting really used to changing the yam positions. It's super easy to do. I need to spend half an hour, a couple of half hour sessions, but actually spend some time tuning going one tech to the other front handle, getting your hand movements, figuring out where the handles are on your particular one, you're going to use cause that'll make a big difference.

And then you really want to tow behind a boat or a ski or something, if you can, with the foliar on. So you do the two things separately and then put them together. During the lockdowns, we did quite a bit of wing skating, which is actually really good for practicing your techs and your jibes once you're a little bit Bader.

But you do, you can wear through your wings pretty easily. If you crash on the concrete with them, I'll pop one, doing that crashing on the skateboard. But yeah. Put the two skills to give a separately. And then when you're learning, you have to get on a big board, the bigger, the better almost so that it's super stable.

Just get the feeling of sailing around. If you've done a ton of windsurfing or Cotting, then you have, you could PR or, you could probably start on a smaller board, but really just get going on the biggest board you can, which may mean taking a lesson of someone who's got the right gear.

Yeah. That's always one of those conundrums for new people is she really should get a big board, but they want to get that second or third board that they want to buy. They think they're gonna need in six months, which, but it's just hard to start on a, an advanced that's.

But you're going to end up using the big board on the light one days anyway, like I still use, the a hundred liter board pretty regularly on the light one day. So first you can stand up surf on it, yeah, that's right. That's right. Appearance of doing some standup.

Then you've got that. That'd be a good place to start as a board that you could stand up paddle on if you're into that. And then you could get going on that board and use it as your sup or Hey, just take lessons. It's, that's always even though whinging, it's it's definitely safer than kiting.

You just progress faster when someone's actually with you looking at what you're doing and giving you some direct feedback.

It's an investment. Yeah. I just think it's crazy that people spend like thousands of dollars on their equipment, but then they're too cheap to spend like $200 on the lesson, what and where you probably get better results from taking a lesson than buying another wing or something like that, yeah. And it's only the first bit. And once you're over that first, but you've got those basic skills in your way and you'll just definitely progress faster through that stage. Plus it's a symbol on your gear. So you, because you're using someone else's gear and that stage, when are you more likely to break gear be you're, know, you needing that really big kit and then you can transition from there.

Yeah. True. All right. Thanks so much for sharing your time. I guess you want to get out on the water probably sooner and have to answer some more emails and stuff like that, but is there any, anything else you want to share or talk about. Sorry, one more question. Do you have any new moves you're working on a wing foiling that you're struggling with or trying to figure out just claim, tax, both ways obviously, right heel side to toe side and toe side to hillside, it's a different kind of technique and switching fate and.

Getting that really claim in terms of I really liked getting on waves. I'm more about just trying to get some nice turns, on, on a proper wave, getting in the pocket, getting some nice terms. I do heading kickers and jumping, I'm not really full freestyle guy.

But yeah. Hi, I might get there. I have tried a few inversions every time. I usually right off the wing, put the foil straight through it and it usually ends up in a long swim. I think I'll leave that for the younger guys for now, but you never know if I get an, more time a minute for me, I guess I'm spending so much time testing gear.

Yeah, I just want to ride waves. Do you like when you get on the water, do you see it more as your job or more as a fun thing to do? It's still a fun thing to do, but it's definitely a job as well. Changing things. One, one thing at a time it's, there's a lot to think about. And and you've got to go through the process methodically, which it does, and you're offering.

Maybe not even in the raw and the location, you might go to a few or just having a session for yourself or on the Gill you might be on, but it's just, you have to go through each step with each bit of gear. And I still love it. I still love being on the water, but it's still a job too. It's just, you've got to go through all those iterations to, to understand it, but there, Hey, we had a session on Saturday where yeah, I just knew it was super windy.

I'm here howling on shore storm. And I didn't have anything particular. We had to test that day. I was waiting for some stuff to arrive and so we just went for a fun session and it was great and just stayed on some, just the 10 50, which has been out for ages, but it was just a really windy session with some fun waves and we just had a blast.

Yeah, no, I can totally relate to that because a lot of times testing stuff or filming and videoing and stuff like that, but yeah. Sometimes it's nice to go out on equipment that you know exactly how it works and no cameras and just having fun. The best sessions, right?

Yeah. Oh, it's still all of it's fun. I mean it's, and that's the beauty of, that's why we do what we do. That's what we love. And yeah, really lucky to be able to do the thing that I love, which is get out on the water, I'm on a foil and that we can turn it into something that hopefully a ton of other people can love doing.

And that's the goal. And yeah, carry on. I was actually asked the question if I ever feel guilty about spending too much time in the water, but I like, I don't feel guilty at all. Cause it's like part of my job and it's what I love to do. So what about you? Do you ever feel guilty that you spend too much time.

Not good. What about your wife? Is she get upset or your partner? No, she's pretty, she's awesome. She's awesome. And we have great family support and, but yeah, there's, you've definitely got to spend time. I have definitely have days where I'm looking after, the number of she's working and not taking sessions, so it's a balance in life. Like everyone has, you've got to balance, so yeah. The three year old, does it sleep through the night or do who gets up in the middle of the night? Yeah. We share it, she's pretty good. She's pretty good. We're we have a one room house, so she's, she'll come and just climate debate and everyone just goes because stays asleep basically.

Yeah. There you go. Cool. Thanks so much. Yeah. I have to do this again maybe in a year or so when you have some new stuff coming in. Yeah. Let's see. Let's give it a really interesting year to see how we are. Everything goes, there's so much cool development going on right now. It's a really exciting time in the sport.

Yeah, we've got, new things coming. We're working on all the time and I'm really excited actually about the white projects with Mike Murphy at the moment, we've got some new gear we're going to be putting out in association with him pretty soon. And it's like full circle. Like Mike is such a legend and he's not really involved in the wind, the wing foiling thing, but he is the godfather of the sport.

He came up with the front wing rear wing T foil and he's such a wealth of knowledge and has all his experience comes from just actually doing it. Cause he was such a ripper in a himself and he. Those foils for all those guys, on Maui and Hawaii, back in the day, rush Randalls to this day, as land, he landed three back brawls in a row on a big outer, outer reef wave, and carried on surfing the wave.

Like we're not even seeing guys doing that yet ensure he had boots and all of that, but that was on a Mike Murphy foil, so Mike's got some understanding, like the biggest thing and we did a trip to lake Powell recently, and we met with, there should be some photos in the upcoming foil mag, actually for that one where we had to sit down guys and then our top, stand up, riders, all riding together and cross pollinating ideas.

And it was epic to see the sit-down guys their understanding of the foils when they're exiting the water and entering the water is just next level. You know what those guys were doing double back roads and landing fully clean on the foil with the sit-down foils. And then. It's a different kind of foil to do that sort of thing.

And so those guys, they're all about, being towed behind the boat and hucking big air, but what you learn from it, different whole different aspect of the way a foil can function. It's just, yeah. It's going to inform a lot of other types of foiling in the future. And it's pretty cool that, Mike still there, he's probably 73 or something now, but he's when he can still, take here on a foil behind a boat.

So yeah, I actually learned a lot watching some of those videos of them, like how they before they jumped, they come up really high and then hit the water and then boosts super high and like with, yeah, but that jumped, I get a lot of that has to do with the foils that they're using too.

And it's a very different shape of foil. The different sanction, everything about it is it's all about angle of attack. And when you pointed out it goes up that thing and they also, they're a lot cleaner coming back into the water as well. But there's the challenge with that as they don't, that kind of foil has no pump, right?

So it's a real different sort of element, but it's interesting getting on, like we just got on some of the those sit-down foils, which is a version of what lib was writing in that video. You played at the start of this interview, super thin, really flat section on that foil and look what Lynn was doing, 20 years ago, homo spoils, those glared and Dave Kalama and Ravi and Peyton, rush Randall has guys towing in at jaws and ripping waves.

Only people like Chi and those same guys are doing today on those old foil. So there's something in that when you've got a ton of energy. So yeah, it's just super exciting times that the whole thing, right? Yeah. It seems like definitely to me, like foiling is just seems to be the future of watersports is too.

It's so smooth and efficient and kinda, it can be very low impact too. You don't like, you're not like hitting the waves yet. It's it's a smooth and exhilarating. So I think we've got a long way to go and thanks for pushing the sport forward and thank you for your time and, having, being so open and honest with all your ideas and comments and questions, man it's a cool forum that you've got going on.

Dude. All right. Thanks. Thanks army. Have a great, does everyone have a great day? Get out on the water and have fun. All right. You're still here. Thank you so much for watching to the very end. You're the ones I'm making this show for them. 5% of the people that watch all the way to the end, that just can't get enough information about weight foiling you're as into it as I am.

So really appreciate you sticking around. I'm actually on my way to go wing falling right now. So I'm going to make it quick, but thanks so much. I hope you're getting out in the water as well. And I know, especially the ones down under in New Zealand and Australia, your summer is just starting. I know for those of you in the U S probably it's getting a little bit cold now and Europe and so on, but I hope you're still getting out and having fun and at least staying stoke the fear if it's too cold to go in the water.

So thanks for watching and see you next time. Aloha.

Alex Aguera Wing Foil Interview- Blue Planet Show #15

Aloha friends is Robert Stehlik. Thank you for tuning into another episode of the blue planet show.  on the blue planet show. I interview Wingfoil athletes, designers and thought leaders. And I asked them questions, not just about wing foil equipment and technique, but I'm also trying to get to know them a little bit better, their background, what inspires them and how they live their best life.

You can watch this show on YouTube for visual content, or you can also listen to it as a podcast on the go to search for the blue planet show on your favorite podcast. I haven't come out with a new blue planet show for awhile. It's cause I've been super busy. You might've heard that. We took over a new shop in Haleiwa on Oahu's north shore, formerly known as tropical rush.

We just opened there and I've been super busy, getting everything set up. It's really exciting, but it also, it takes a lot of time. So I haven't had as much time for the YouTube channel and the blue planet show, but I've been waiting for a long time for Alex  to come onto the show and he finally had some time to do it.

So I got a great interview with him. Alex is nutty about wing foiling. He's coming out with GoFoil Wing foil boards and wings. And of course he plays such an important role in the development of the sport. He basically invented the foil that allowed Kai Lenny to do downwinders on a big long board. And basically kick-started this whole sport of foiling in the surf and now with wings.

So thank you for that, Alex. And without further ado, this is the interview with Alex. All right, Alex Aguera. Thank you so much for joining me on the blue planet show. So how are you doing today? Doing great early in the morning, over here. How are you doing Robert? I'm good. Yeah. So I'm on here on a Oahu. You're on Maui, nine o'clock on a Wednesday. So yeah. So tell us, let's start a little bit with your background. Where did you grow up and how did he get into water sports and like early childhood to start from the very beginning? For getting into water sports, it started when I was let's see about 14.

We went on a family vacation. I grew up in Clearwater, Florida, by the way. And. We went on a family vacation to the Virgin islands, British Virgin islands, and we're going to be on a sailboat and, do the bareboat charters where you travel around to each of the islands. And it's, it was just a fun, two week trip in the, in a place where we'd never been in places that were super clear water like that crazy, it was just fantastic.

But anyway, the captain of our boat, we had hired a captain who would sail us around to the, for the first week. And then we were on our own. The second week, the the guy would put this wind surfer in the water at this one place where we first started called Soper Sol and Tortola. Any of, they would start sailing around with him and his other captain, buddy friend, on this funny looking sailing craft that, ended up being one of the original.

Baja style windsurfers. So this would be for the original windsurfer was some of the first boards that oil swipes, or it may, and it looked like a big, giant, long board made out of a fiberglass. But anyway, when we got back to Florida after the chip, my dad wanted to check this out as a possible, get the kids doing this.

Cause we were riding motorcycles and stuff at the time you wanted to get us off of motorcycles. So he calls up Hoyle Sweitzer, which was windsurfing international or whatever. They called themselves. At that time, this was really early. This is like 1975. And oil tells him, he goes, Hey, I'll sell you six of them and make you a dealer, so it was like, okay, we were the first dealer and in Florida and it all started from there. We started wind surfing right in 1975. And that's how I got into all these other sports that have evolved since then. Oh, that's so cool. Yeah. Foil Schweitzer is Zane Schweitzer's grandfather who basically invented the sport and had the patent and everything. Yeah. So your dad became the first either the first wind surf dealer in Florida. Yeah. Like district nine or whatever, what are they? I can't remember fleet nine or something, the, for the ninth, one in the United States.

So that's when the books were still made out of wood and stuff like that. And the bowl we're still out of wood. There was a daggerboard was still out of wood. We hadn't progressed to, a composite looking white daggerboard yet. And we hadn't invented harnesses yet foot straps or anything.

Okay. And then, okay. And then what happened next? After that, we Pursue to get better and better at wind surfing. And my dad started to be the distributor for the Southeast United States. And we were really in the winter and our whole life changed from, he was working at Honeywell, which is one of the firms down there in Florida.

He was a engineer. And then he switched over to just going to be wind surfing. We're going to go all in, into this wind surfing thing. So from there, we add a whole bunch of people in Florida that we were the original Florida wind surfing crew. We called ourselves the fearless flying Floridians there for a couple of years.

And it was a real close crew there in the Clearwater Sarasota area that we always raced against each other. And we just got better and better. And then pretty soon we were doing well in the national and world championships. Awesome. And then. How old were you when you did that kind of the racing and your first world championship?

I guess? My first national championship was the following year. What Hoyle used to do back then was we would do these big district championships. There was like maybe five or six throughout United States and whoever had won their district championship would get a free trip to the nationals.

So the nationals then following year in 76, I'm 15 years old, a win, a free airfare to Berkeley, California, where we're going to do the nationals. And I traded it in for money to buy a bus ticket and pay for my hotel when I'm over there. So just imagine you're 15 years old, you're traveling in a Greyhound bus, cross country.

Get over there, you rent your own wind surfer back then they would have, rental packages where you just come in, rent your own gear and then raise. So at 15, that was quite an experience, to have my parents to be able to let me go, all the way across the country and do that all by yourself was, looking back at it now back then, seem oh, that's okay.

I can do this. We'll look back at it. Now. I was like, God, I would never put my kids through that. But that was a fantastic Regata because. What happened was, so it was 76. We're at Berkeley. We had a lot of wind and stuff, but as first time I get to meet Mike waltz and Matt Sweitzer, who were like the gurus back then of windshield, because they had a thing called the windsurfing news, which was like a little paper back, like a magazine, the early wind surfing magazine was a paperback called wind surfing news.

And it was always the swipe tours and like waltz and this and that. So we get over there, meet Matt and Mike can win or goes for his first championship with all the boys. And Robbie Nash does his first championship. All the boys, he, so little 12 year old blonde kid comes in from Kailua. So it was like, all of us got together for the first time at that time.

And he was Robbie Nash is two years younger than you about, okay, so you were 14 and then there's someone even younger than you showing up. Yeah. Yeah, that was, how did you do in that? Oh, I got beat up. It was blowing really hard. And in Florida where I learned, I was just learning to race around and, barely get planing kind of conditions, which we have in Florida coming up to that summertime, you get to Berkeley, it's blowing 20 to 20 fives, sometimes gusting 30 and one of the races.

And I don't think I got across the starting line. I got beat up. I was just rag dolling. Cause you only had one, one sail and it was pretty big. I probably weighed 125 pounds at the time. And I remember there was these divas, these sisters, the SWAT tech sisters. There was Susie and Martha and The girls just beat up on me.

I was getting whooped up on by girls mad. It was like, oh, bad. It was, I was humbled when I went there, but watching some of the stuff that was just then evolving because Robbie had come over and he started doing this railroad thing, it's the first time any of us see a rail ride. And I was like, oh my God, what is that kid doing?

Who is that kid? And then by the time, the week it ended max White's here. And I think Mike had picked it up and Ken were all doing railroads by the end of the week. They had figured it out. But when you first saw that, I was like, what the heck? That's something new. And then we did one of the, I think it was, could have been the very first freestyle event there.

And. The guide who Dennis Davidson, who was one of the original Kailua windsurfers was putting a little teeny fin on his board. He was doing these super fast tax and stuff. And we were like, wow. And he ended up winning the very first freestyle. Oh. And then again, so that's awesome. And so then how did that progress it, you became a professional windsurfer, right?

Yeah. That that was many years later in about 1980, started getting paid to do wind surfing races by wind surfing international and oil spikes or, and we would go over to Maui for the first time. We were going to do the Pan-Am world cup was a real big race. It was for high wind and it was in Kailua.

And the first year I didn't go to, it was in 79. There wasn't any wind. So they had to race in Waikiki. The next year, oil flies us out. I spend six weeks on Maui practicing with Mike waltz. He had told me, Hey, you gotta come over here and see this place. If it blows all the time, he had just discovered Okinawa, within the last six months.

And he goes, there's nobody around the wind's blowing all the time. There's waves. So my brother and I went over there and hung out with Mike for about six weeks. Then we went to Kailua to do the first real pan Emmerich's. It was blowing hard and it's like the windiest day you've ever been in Kailua now is what we experienced for a whole.

And we were like, oh my God, this place is gnarly. We were scared to death coming from Florida and seeing that kind of stuff. And that was one of the very first, big, high wind regattas and wind surfing history. Wow. Cool. And you said your dad was an engineer at Honeywell. So did you ever get any like formal education as an engineer or any kind of like that kind of thing?

Or is it, are you just all self-taught on the side? Yeah, on that side, it's been mostly self-taught. I went to, some business classes in community college after I got out of high school, but I moved over to Maui after that 1980 trip. I was like, oh, I'm selling everything. I'm moving to Maui.

As soon as I can. It took me about a year and a half to be able to pull it off. Then I moved back in 1982 to become a professional. Nice. Yeah. And then, so how was that getting started on Maui in the eighties? That was something, it was great. We were, I don't know if Paya very well, but back then there was, it was hardly anybody in pyuria.

There's no traffic light. We rented a place. It's right next to where mana foods is now, back then, there wasn't any model foods yet, but we rented a Quonset hut there. That is where they still store some of their, use it for storage of some of the stuff that the store. But anyway, there was at some time, six of us staying in this Quonset hut for 250 bucks a month rent.

So we're all paying like 40 bucks a month rent and living in Maui, nobody around we're going to hokey every day and just having a blast, nobody around on the road, everybody you saw on the road was a windsurfer. You knew everybody. It's like now it's all tourist going by. Yeah. Molly has changed a lot.

I lived there in the nineties or late eighties and early nineties. I lived in Peggy too, like really close over there. So I remember those days we lived in a basement apartment, which is super cheap, but yeah. And then driving old Molly cruisers rusted out cars, all that. And then, and then at that time, when surfing was developing really rapidly and changing and stuff.

And did you start making equipment back then already? Or how did that, how did you get into business that business? I used to, I was sponsored by high-tech surf sports and Craig Masonville, who was the original guy for high-tech used to shape all of my boards. And we were riding the old asymmetrical, wind surfing boards that we used to ride at hook.

I want a couple of the big contests that hook keep a riding those. And then I was always on the pro world tour for wind surfing. And eventually it was hard to get the boards that you wanted, because I had to start working for my French guys Tega and they were making me boards and then Craig was making me boards and it was hard to get boards on time sometimes through the high-tech factory.

And I said, oh the heck with this, I'm going to try and start building boards myself. So in 1989 was probably the first time I was racing on one of my own boards. I remember racing in the Gorge and doing really well on that. And at the high-tech surf summer series I won a couple races on my own board and I was all proud.

I was like, oh yeah, I might be able to do this. So that's how long ago I started. Yeah. Nice. So those are, slalom racing boards is, were your first boards you built? I got the first boys were slalom racing boards. The way boards is a little bit more technical cause it's easier to break those. So the first law and boards, I didn't have any sandwich on them.

They were just covered with carbon and I had some elaborate process for stretching the cloth over it and wetting it all out and keeping the rock or shape, and then learn how to do vacuum bagging and sandwich construction after that. Yeah, I was working for hunt Hawaii in those days and he, we were, he was still building boards with using polyester as in, but then I guess at that time it would switched over to Potsie.

So is that, what do you use the proxy or polio? My first boards from Masonville were always polyester. Then we started switching to a poxy in about 1985. I've got a slot onboard that Dave calling on, who was the laminator for high-tech back then we started experimenting with styrofoam and carbon fiber, and I raced the first one in 1985.

I think it was. And that's where we're like, oh man, this is white, stiff and strong. And we're like, the lightness was just incredible compared to polyester. And I won the Gorge the second year in a row on that board. And I won the Japan world cup that year and in the spring on that court.

But we learned a lot of things about, styrofoam construction goes back. We would just sink the boxes into the styrofoam. And then by the time I had finished the Japan race, my deck box had collapsed into the board. There was a big hollow spot inside. Okay. We were learning a whole new phone core and what to do with it.

There was a lot of learning in that. Luckily the board stayed together until the race was over. Yeah. Classic. And then use like vacuum bagging and all that kind of stuff too, or just regular later. Yeah. When I started, I got my first vacuum bag bored by this guy, Gary efforting, who was a, you might remember him.

He was the guy that made Hypertech in the Gorge and him and Keith notary would do these. They called it a clam sandwich or something where they were doing vacuum bagging. But Gary and I, he was a friend of mine because we all grew up in the same area in Clearwater, Florida. And he was showing, he made one of my original 12 foot long boards that we used to raise some world cup.

And he was using this new aircraft technology called sandwich, construction. And he was the first guy that I saw doing sandwiches on boards. And slowly I learned how to do all of those process. A lot of it was trial and error, but eventually I was, I had retired from the pro wind surfing tour and started running the probe windsurfing tour.

And then at the same time as being the race director, I started building boards for top guys like Kevin Pritchard and Mike abou Zionist. And those were all, they had to be super custom, super like sandwich boards. Wow. Okay. And then I guess when tiding came around, you got into kite surfing or yeah. W what happened there? The kite surfing, it was it was funny because we were sitting over here. We're all wind surfers. Layered was still a wind surfer. And he started playing with this kite and my other buddy maneuver Tom from France was starting to experiment with this kite thing and we'd see him at home Keepa.

The guys were takeoff with these funny, real bars and all kinds of weird hiding stuff and start sailing this kite and go cruise down the coast, and ended up down at Kanawha or wherever. And I'm like, wow, that looks pretty interesting. What the heck is that? I didn't want to do it until somebody got back to the beach.

They started out, I'm not really into this down winter and you're out there, on this thing, out in the blue water, with the, whatever could go wrong in palette around with the shark. So okay. If you could get back to where you started, that's what I finally started getting into it now.

I don't know, in 97 or 98 or whatever, somebody was finally making it back. But what really got me into it was flash. Austin had moved over from Florida. He was lived in Daytona and he came over and he was this new kite guru guy. And I would watch him jump and he's  25 feet in the air and just hang in there and then come down real soft of flashy to have great Ky control.

He still does. And I was just watching that going, wind surfing. If you jumped 25 feet in the air, you come down hard. I don't care what kind of stuff you're doing. It's that there's an impact. So I was like, I really want to do that. That's what really got me interested in kiting was watching flashed land softly.

I'm like, okay, now I want to go boosting. So when you got into D did they still have those reels where you had two reel in the kite, if you get, if you drop it in the water. Yeah. Those guys were still using that, but I'm Brett lyrical and all those guys had their kite reels and I'm like, no, I'm not playing with that.

Cut real. Does they look like you eat it? And then there's all this metal and stuff in your face. I started out with one of the two line whip, mocha kites, and then progressed to a two line Nash guy. And then eventually we started making four line kites and it got a little bit easier, those original to lion whip because, and stuff, they were all that was around, but they were a little bit dangerous.

There was a lot of accidents in those early days. It took a while before at least five years before the kites got, safe enough to where, people weren't hurting themselves so bad anymore. Yeah. And then I guess around that same time the strap crew I guess layered and restaurant, all those guys started foiling, right?

Torn, foiling and jaws and stuff like that. So when was the first time you tried foiling and how did you get into that? Foiling. I didn't try foiling until much later. Those guys were all into these BNN, bindings and strapped into this little board and everything weighed about 60 pounds.

It seemed and big aluminum, mass and just super heavy. And then of course, these guys were real right. They were like, Hey, we're going to go to jobs. We're going to ride out or spread, it was like, you're all in, or you're not, and I'm like, they're like, Hey Alex, you got to try this.

And I'm like, no way, man. I'm not going to be strapped into that tank and going over the falls. And that looks dangerous. But those guys there, they really were into it at the time. And we were all towing too at the time. With, our little tow strap boards. And I remember one day we were out at Spreckels mill and rush Randall is towing around.

It's pretty small for tow day. We like to tow it. It's eight foot plus, and have some fun and it's four feet occasionally. And you're waiting for a set, but rush is going around in circles, just on his foil, cruising around at least doing backflips, going out with this thing while he's getting pulled with the checks.

And we're like, man, what the heck? Russia's having a lot more fun than we are. So that was one of the first times where I really looked at it and go, wow, this could be fun. But for me to actually get into it myself, I was kite foiling at the time I had start, this is a, it was a funny story because I had stopped kiting for like about five years, Jesse Richmond, who was the world champion at the time.

And his brother, Sean, they were like the best or kiters on Maui. And Jesse goes, Hey, you got to start making some kite or some tight race boards for us. I'm getting beat by girls out on the course. We just started this tight racing thing. So Jesse got me into kiting again. So I built a few boards.

Then I had to test them with those guys. And that's how I got back into kiting then. So this lasted for. Maybe three years of kite racing. That was the one that we had the big, three fins on it. And you're, racing up when, so then my buddy in Martha's vineyard, we started foiling back then they were riding all kinds of funky foils, but it was the early days of foils.

Most of them came out of France back then and he goes, Alex, I need you to make me a kite foil board and I'll trade you this foil, you got to start getting into foiling and you I'll trade it for a board. So I did this with my buddy, Rob Douglas, he's the world speed record holder for kiting back in the day.

And he goes, okay, we're going to do a trade. So that was my introduction into kite foiling. And he gave me this foil that he had already beat up. He weighs about 2 35 or breaks the heck out of everything. And it was all wobbly and I had to keep fixing it. I was breaking it and stuff, and that's how I got.

My first initiation into foiling and how to build foils. Cause I was always fixing it. And then I started making my own wings, and that's that was, started me all into foiling. Yeah. And on those foils for kite, for them back then were tiny, right? Really small wings and really long mass and so on.

Or is that kind of what you started on? That's what we all started on because back then it was the same thing with layered in those guys. We had these really thin foils cause we were only interested in speed. We wanted to go faster and faster. Nobody wanted to make something to go slower.

So everything back then it was, they were small, they were thin, everything was like the fast race foils were less than, 13 millimeters thick. They were, 14 or 15 millimeters was a fat foil. So that's what that's what we used to do. Yeah. And then at, and did you, when you made your own fuzzy, like CNC of them out of G 10, or what kind of how did you make your own foil?

Basically what I did in the beginning was I would take some existing foil that I had, and then I would reshape it and try to figure out how to make molds. So I was making molds and figuring out how to do that. It was a whole different process. I was used to building boards and sandwich, construction, vacuum bag now on a changed to, Hey, you got to learn how to make molds and make these wings.

So it was a big learning curve. I've made a lot of mistakes. I burned up a lot of molds. I did all kinds of crazy stuff. It was just like learning to build boards. You've got, there's a big learning curve, but that's what I ended up doing. And I would take some of the wings that I got and that I wanted it bigger or smaller or whatever, and I would reshape them and then make molds off of them.

And then when did you actually start your business? The gold foil business and started making foils to sell? Like when was that? Yeah, and I think for Gofoil, I probably was in maybe 2013 or 14. First I put the, a name on my kite foils. Then I went to Vietnam to have my buddies over there at kinetic T.

I taught them how to build the foils and then I changed it to go for it. I had this idea I'm over there with the boys in Vietnam and it, they don't speak English, super well. So I'm telling them, what do you guys think about this name? It's like gold foil, just go for it.

They'd were like, yeah, I don't get it. I had to go for by myself cause I couldn't get anybody to confirm that, Hey, that's a good idea at the time, but I got my buddies over there to make me the logos and stuff. And that's where I came up with. The name go foil was when I first went over to Vietnam and started putting it in production that's way before any of the foils that everybody knows as gold foil.

Now. So the kinetic factory was making your first kite surfing. Foils. Yeah. So the ones in production at first, I was building it all here, custom and I started building boards and the foils over there at Connecticut. Okay. I'm gonna, I'm going to screen share a little bit here. And then at some point He made a foil for Kailani.

And then he posted this video that kind of took, I guess now it has over 5 million views, which is just amazing. But can you tell us a little bit about the backstory behind, behind this and how that all came about? There's a long story behind that, if you want to go into it, the, we want to hear all about it.

Okay. In the beginning, this was about maybe eight months prior to this Kai was riding my kite foils and we decided that we were going to put one of them on his one of his standup boards. So we put a Tuttle box and one of his, I think he had an eight foot standup order, 76 or something at the time.

And we put the kite foil on it and he was going to go stand up foil. And I never really heard back from Kai about it. He comes back about six or eight months later and he goes, Hey Alex, we gotta redo that thing about going down, wind foiling again. And I go what happened with the first foil? And he goes it's dangerous and there's not enough lift.

And it was really hard to ride and I'm like, okay let me think about it. And I'll try and come up with something. We'll try it again. So what ended up happening was I spent two weeks taking one of the old kite foils that I had that I really liked that had the most lift and I kept changing it.

And adding on, I had this idea that we got to rethink all of this, that, thin foils is not what you need to get going under your own power. We need something that's going to be a slower foil that can lift up more weight, at a slow speed. And I'm thinking shoot, these big aircraft planes that are lifting tanks and stuff go by having bigger thicker wings and different foil sections.

And I started trying to mimic that on one of my kite foils. So I would build it up Bondo and AB foam, reshape it and glass in and kept playing with it. And about two weeks before I finally said, okay, you've done enough remodeling here. Cause you're never going to get it. Perfect. You have a little bumps here or whatever, and you're like, okay, let's try.

So I call up Kai or I sent him a text and Kai is oh, I'm in LA, I'm on my way to Europe. I'm doing the indoor in in Paris with Robbie. We're doing, it's a wind surfing indoor. Okay I'll try it out and see how it works. So I go down to sugar coat, which is here on Mallee, which is a kind of a bumpy funky way when it's fairly big.

And it's like head high Peaky sets all over the place and kind of gnarly, for trying to foil for the first time I go out and say, what the heck I'm going for it. And actually Jeffrey and fin Spencer are in the water surfing and my dentist Barclays in the water. So we've got all these guys witnessing me going out there and trying to kill myself.

So I go out big standup paddleboard, or what did you put the foil on? Yeah, I had made a board that was. I think it was eight, six or nine foot was my standup board. I put a total box in it about 24 inches from the tail and I'm thinking, okay, this should be good. Where I want to stand on. It will give me a little bit of lift.

Cause I moved it forward compared to what I do on my kite foil. And I use the kite mass though, which is 38, 39 inches tall. I've got this new front wing, which ended up being the original Kaiwei. And so I put that on there, go out. I had a tail wing that I didn't like for kiting, cause it had too much lift.

So I used that for the sup foil to cause I needed more or less. So I'm like, okay, I'll try that. See if it works, get out there. All of a sudden I rise up and I'm like, I got plenty of lift and then I roll over and I'm looking at these wings in my life because I'm on this giant mask, and it's just, I kept looking at the wings.

After about five near misses of hitting that wing with my face. I go into the beach and I'm thinking to myself now I know what Kai's talking about now. I know why it's dangerous to the masters too tall. So I go back to the shop, cut the thing in half, I cut it down to 18 inches or something and go back to lower lowers it.

the next day. And actually take my GoPro and film myself writing. I remember I went over an Eagle Ray or something that day got a nice video and I'm going like, at times almost 50 yards, I'm like, whoa, I could do this. And it was just like amazing. And a couple of my buddies were in the water and saw that fuck buck saw it and Jerry Rodriguez saw it.

And these guys were just like, they couldn't believe it. They're like, oh my God, he's doing it. But anyway, is this on your YouTube channel? I put it in Facebook back then Facebook. I put it in Facebook. I've got it somewhere. I can find it. I don't think I ever put it in YouTube.

I don't know. I might've. Yeah, but you go that far back, but yeah, I tagged Kai on it and then Kai saw it. He goes, oh, wow, man. I've got to try that as soon as I get back. So he was all stoked. And then when Kai came back, you put Khan on the same board, the same thing. And it's hard to describe right now.

We take it for granted that, what are you watching Tom Brady? I couldn't believe that's ridiculous. But anyway while I'm a big fan of the Tampa bay Buccaneers, so he's brought it back to my town. So he's like my hero. He was always a hero for me, but now he's like a super hero, but anyway, Comes back jumps on the same equipment and it's hard.

Describe the first time you see a guy who's foiling and he goes, past the peak goes way out to the left, comes back across the peak goes way over to the right and keeps going back and forth. And you're looking at them going, what the heck is he doing? It's just, it was mind boggling to see somebody do that for the first time.

And I was like, oh my God, what the heck is going on here? Maybe we have something here. And, Kai is just a freak. He was just doing stuff that was, unbelievable at the time. And I was just like, oh, maybe I should make a patent out of this. This is it. It was just like a revelation seeing something like that for the first time.

Yeah. And that, the first foil I got we jet my friend, Jeff Chang, and I'd tried it on a kite foil at first, be behind a jet ski and stuff. And we were really struggling in same thing. Like almost killed ourselves, falling into the foil and stuff like that. But then when we got the first Chi foil, that was like, oh, this is so much easier, but it's funny because at that time, the Chi foils seemed like a huge foil, but now it's actually a kind of a small foil. Most people start on a much bigger flow. Yeah, exactly. That's a really small foil. Now, getting back to the story, how that evolved to your video. Okay. Kai was just riding in the waves that sugarcoat doing this stuff.

Henry Spencer took a video of him that was like the first time where you see this going crazy. And then he starts going. He goes, okay. We got to, I got to talk to Rob. We got to put this on one of my downwind boards because we tried it on my downwind board, the same board that we were riding in the surf, and I'd go out there with Kai.

He has his 12, six, his regular, Nash board. We're paddling down. When I cannot get up to save my life, no way, especially on a Chi foil. So he goes, Hey, let me try that. Give it to Chi and Chi proceeds to get up like seven times on the way down to sugar coat, like immediately, even on that standup board.

And I'm like, the kids are free. He just paddles his weight to strength ratio is just off the chart when he's battling. So he's all over the place. We get all the way down to sugarcoat. He takes off from the outside, which is like at least a hundred and 150 yards outside. And he cruises all the way into the beach and it was like, wow, this is something he spends the next week, trying to talk Robbie into being able to turn one of his Nash boards and put a total box in it. So I go, okay. We'll do that. Just keep talking to Robbie. See if you can pull it off. Eventually Robbie gives him the, okay. Okay. You're going to do it on that board and blah, blah, blah.

So we put a tunnel box in at 48 inches. Cause Kai says, that's where I stand. I think that's going to be the good place to put the tunnel box. So we put it in there. I get this text he's down at the Harbor practicing and he goes, Houston, we have a problem. And then he goes on to describe that I'm going plenty, fast enough to get foiling, but the tail is hitting the water and I can't get up just because the total box is so far forward, his tail would drag and bring him down again.

So he goes, okay, let's put a tunnel box at 24 inches. Like it is on the other board. And w we should be able to get up and I go why don't we just cut the tail off, and see about it. Like in this video, you can see how I cut the tail off of that board. Put like little diamonds. Yeah. So the next day he shows up at the shop with the board, I said, yeah, we'll put the fellow box.

And he goes, Hey, I think you're right. Let's cut the tail off and just leave the total box where it is. That'll give me less bored after he thought about it overnight. And then within about two weeks, he makes this crazy video of him just jamming down the coast on this. And one of the, one of the scenes from the video that really caught my eye was Dave Kalama.

And Jr is his cousin are in a two man canoe, which is two man Outrigger, which is the fastest boat. Usually in Maui the pattern and he goes right by them and it was just like, oh my God, what is going on there? It was just amazing. It was like, oh, we've got possibilities now. Yeah. They always screws.

That's the dream to be able to just surf the open ocean swells and just be able to keep going indefinitely. And then something that layered had always talked about, we always played volleyball and we were always around together. We always played at Brett's house and layered would always talk about that going.

I think we're going to be able to just cruise for miles down the coast on one of these foils. And then, like 10 or 15 years later this is what we. Yeah. That's amazing. And then, yeah. And then what happened after that? Pretty soon after that, Nash started making foils as well.

So how did you feel about that? I did not feel super stoked about that. And it was like, Hey, we've got it. All right here. You could just, we could build it for you to put your logo on it and you can go from there and then I could make some money out of it.

And Robby was, he's always, do it all yourself and keep it inside the company. And they wanted to do it all ourselves and Mickey, he had told me one day he goes out, he really going to be bummed if we do this all by ourselves, because Rodney wants to do it himself. And I'm like I'll be bombed, but we'll still be friends.

And I guess you did, you did that with star boards for awhile, right? You put the Starboard's logo on or co-branded with Starboard's

was starboard logos as well. We had done a lot of them were just go foil and a lot of them were starboard Gofoil. So there was both of them were branded at the same time for a while. There we were in the early days we were connected with starboard. And then you got a patent on the, on your foil design.

So how come you never, did you ever try to enforce that? I Obviously like now there's so many companies making foils. Is there any way, like anything you ever were able to do with that patent or was it just not feasible? He never really pursued it. If there was a lawyer out there who wanted to pursue it, and work at his, work on his dime and then split it, 90, he takes 90% of the profits.

We get. Then we could do something, but it's something where, you don't really want to jump into that game unless, it's financially feasible. We've got patents on the patent that all kinds of aspects of, the surf foiling and stand up for healing. And basically as being, a new thing and, thickness of foils being thicker than the norm and all of that.

So there's a bunch of aspects to the patent, but we never really pursued that to where it gets expensive, and you'd rather, nobody wants to take that on, and get their own money. You would do a 90 10 split, huh? Split. Get that

out there. That would do it.

Oh, rate is 8% is royalties that all the companies should be paying you, they could get 90% of the 8%, but yeah, that's just one of those things in the beginning, we went for that patent to, it was like, wow this could really be something big. And is it a utility patent or did design patent, do you know?

I'm not even sure which one it is. It's the more expensive ones and that's a utility patent. That means that, that means it doesn't have to be like, even if it's not an exact copy, if it's the same concept and yeah. Basically. Yeah. Yeah. That's what we went for. And we have a big time patent lawyer firm that did it, but it's hard to enforce, obviously you have to prove that it's and he was going to chase it, on their own diamond set of you paying for these lawyers because the lawyers and all that gets expensive, we've got the patent and the us China and.

Australia, we didn't pursue the other countries because you got to pursue every country separately. And then how, and then how did you, did it evolve? Like I know in the early days, like everybody wanted to buy foils and there, you couldn't just couldn't get them, like you couldn't make them fast enough.

And like, how did you ramp up production and what kind of issues did he run into? Yeah, you're in the early days, you, haven't a lot of problems with how to construct this and how to keep it from breaking in me. I always making wind surfers in the early days. I really hated warranties that will end up ruining your business.

You do all of this work and then you got to give the guy another board or fixes board or whatever. So in the beginning, we didn't even want to put out the product till we were pretty sure that we weren't going to break it. So that stalls your production and stuff. And then once you do ramp it up to get, full on production going, then you end up, you have to watch out that things are evolving so fast to not make too much of the, something that might be outdated by the time you get it, because it takes a long time for these factories to build our stuff.

What happened with us, which was unique with us is that my two brother-in-laws build canoes over in China. My one brother-in-law owns the factory because he got burned by some Chinese factory he was working with. So he decided to do his own us own Chinese factory. And then he got asked to jump through all the hoops to do that.

But anyway, they were making the canoes. And he makes a bunch of different models that you see around in Hawaii and

the manager of the factory, my other brother, a brother-in-law Michael Gamblin is my other sister's husband that owns the factory. He's the genius behind, put it all together. He's the guy that I do all the CAD work with and building the foils and the wings and stuff. He's really super smart.

And he's, can pull all of this stuff together. It has the drive to do it where people go, oh, wait a minute. That's way overwhelming. I'm not going to do my own Chinese factory. That's going to be too many things to overcome. But anyway, what happened was I had been building stuff in Vietnam.

And it was getting to where it was hard to get stuff out of Vietnam fast enough. And I was seeing that these foils you're going to need a lot of these are going to need thousands of these things, cause it's in hot demand. So I asked my brother-in-law Michael, Hey, do you want to start building these at your factory in China?

And I showed him the video of Kai and the 5 million views. He's oh my God. He just went by Dave Kalama and junior on the two man. Okay. We're all in. Let's do it. And that's how it started. And now it's a whole family business and we build all of the main hydrofoils in China at his factory. So I guess in the beginning, like I remember the first one I got it started to crack right by the mass of base, like between the base and the Tableau box.

And then also on the fuselage. That's, those were the main points where a lot of. You had a lot of issues, right? Yeah. You have issues like that in the beginning where there's a, it's a process of trying to get your carbon fiber loaded, just right. The direction ability or, you're 45 degree angles and how much materials in there and, the compression, there's a lot of issues that you had to overcome.

I like the first one I got we got one from the factory in China comes over and we had all of the fiberglass or carbon aligned in the wrong direction. And I snapped the front wing right off writing, riding. All of a sudden my front wings gone. And it's just a matter of, you've got to have fibers going the right way and the 40 fives and everything to work perfectly, especially with prepregs is a whole different animal where there are layers and layers put together in the middle.

Okay. So they're made as a union directly. Think of it as the strands are uni directional. Like these are the strands are the carbon. Each sheet is like this, you can align it like this or whatever. And you cut these all, put them in the wall in a certain way. So there was a lot of learning curves to get, not all right in the beginning and how much should be here and how much should be there.

And where are the weak points and all that kind stuff. Yeah. We went through all that too. So very frustrating to get stuff back that just breaks, right? Yeah. I know. Warranties. Yeah. And then again, then, sorry. And then and then what happened then? The develop, what was the development after that?

Like how did you ramp it up and become a global brand. In the beginning, it was easy because nobody else had any foils. So we were, we went globally right in the beginning. And we were selling shoes couple thousand or 3000 foils in those first couple of years, just because we were the only guys who had foils.

So that was easy. So then we got around worldwide, fairly easy in the beginning, then it becomes harder and harder because you've got, 10 guys get in, want to make foils. And you've got 20 guys who come in and then you got 50 guys. You've got people you'd never even heard of or trying to build foils.

And everybody wants to jump in on this bandwagon. It's like the early days of wind surfing or stand up, everybody jumped into the show to try and be. So that makes it harder. So you've got to, you've got to keep up really good quality. Don't you don't want warranties to come back to ruin the business, but at the same time, you're trying to make faster stuff or easier stuff or, whatever and try and keep progressing is the way we try to do it over here.

Yeah. And then, so you got into more high aspect, foils and fast, faster designs, thinner foils, smaller for us and so on. What do you, what are you working on now? It's like your latest latest designs and what's, what do you see for the future? What we're going to do in the future is we're going to try and weave the last couple of years, we've gone into speed and try to get faster and faster, and we've made a bunch of.

So the wings to go a lot faster because in the beginning, everybody was hitting on us going, oh, your oils are outdated. They're so slow in this and that and blah, blah, blah. So then we worked on our speed. So now we've gotten to where we were like about the fastest foils out there. So now we want to try and get back to, without losing some of that, you'll have those lines of fast, easy foils to ride, but then something that is really easy to ride it, doesn't accelerate on the turn, something that's a little bit user-friendly for the intermediate type guys, the guys that are really advanced and ride.

These are NL wings, which are super fast and, tourney and everything. But the the intermediate is get a little bit, shy away from that. It's we're going to make the GL is a really good one for winging it for the intermediate people, but I'm going to try for next year to make something that's super easy.

So we're going to have a different line. We'll have three different lines, basically. So are you making a foil that's specifically designed for wing foiling or are they all all around foils for Steph prone, foiling, standup foiling and wink foiling, or depending on the size of the wing or like how, yeah.

They all can cross over. So we're finding out that, you want one, that's supposed to be erasing foil. Okay. So we're thinking downwind or are racing for wings or or towing falls into that category. If you're in really big waves, you need some super fast and Then you have the other wings, like the NL, which are great for stand up.

They're great for surfing the smaller ones, prone surfing, but they're really good for winging also. So it's funny how all of them, you can almost do every one of the sports on each one of those wings. It's just a different style of riding you have to do, or a different size riders, weight, might like the bigger wing where the smaller guys like, oh my God, I can't write that thing.

I need a little tiny thing. But all of them seem to cross over. I can tow on, on different size waves on any of the wings I can wing on any of the wings. I need particular amount of, a lot of wind for the small toe wings, but on the Raceway. Like when I'm paddling downwind, a lot of the wings crossover to me, paddling downwind too.

So there's, it's funny. They all have their moments and can crossover. Yeah. So I guess the same design just in different sizes works for different things. I guess when you're Don flooding, you probably needed a little bit more surface area, a bigger wing, to keep going. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Cool.

Yeah. And then how did you get into wink foiling? What I know you were one of the early wing furthers. You were on an ozone and stuff like that. Posting videos of you riding at lanes and stuff like that. So how did you get into that? A wing foiling started with the way it started over here was flash.

Austin was always tightened down there with us and riding. Type foils and stuff just decided to put together this funky wing thing with some windsurfing battens and some old kite material and just put this whole thing together. And he goes, Alex, I need one of your foils. I think I can get distinct foiling.

And I'm like, what are you talking about? He goes, yeah, I've been hiding down at the sewer plant, try and testing this thing. So get him a foil on it. He comes up there, we take pictures of them. These are the first things we see of the new of evolution of Wingfoot and where it started. So we kite and rode this thing at the same place where Ken winners, right next door to us, he does all of his kite testing there too.

And then Ken saw him one day and he's oh my God, what is that? I'm going to put that in production. I'm going to build a couple of those and we'll start doing experimenting with it. So Ken takes it from there and puts the boom on it. Cause Ken's an old time windsurfer and he just liked the book.

And the very first wings that I tried were kin winners, duotone wings. And that's how we first learned. Alan could, is got me down there one day. We were down there with Alan at canal and he goes here, go try it. And then I proceed to get up and cruise around. After about 10 minutes I was riding it pretty well.

Cause I already had, was really good kite for her. So it was easy for me to learn, oh, I used to be a windsurfer and then my wife tried it and stuff. And then from there it was like, oh my God, this is fun. So the first year I went to the Gorge with, it was maybe three years ago and I was on a, do a tone.

And then I got to try ozone for the first time they had a couple ozones there at the show and they gave me one of those. So then I was using the ozone and the duotone at the hatchery and just having a blast. I was like, oh my God, this is fun. It's like the early days of wind surfing. Where were you working?

Everybody was super stoked and feeding off of each other. And it's just a bunch of fun between everybody and they're all talking about, Hey, what are you writing? What I'm I learned this, what should I do? I'm having problems with this. And it's like the whole same atmosphere of the early wind surfing days.

Yeah. And people are very open about sharing their ideas and their knowledge and what they learned is pretty cool. That it's not as close hold as in some other disciplines, I think. Yeah. And then what, so what are the like behind see those two boards and like what is, what are you working on now?

What are you latest products and yeah. Tell me what you're up to. Latest thing now is we'll be getting in our boards from the kinetic factory. I worked with the kinetic factory again that used to build my kite boards to start making a wing boards. Their full sandwich, Connecticut is known for making.

Some of the best boards in the world, as far as the factory goes, they're super solid. They, anybody who's gotten any new Jimmy Lewis boards in the last five years knows that they're built very well. So we get a container of those come in. Yep. That you can see the they've all the boards and the first container will have a total and a plate.

There's all kinds of foot straps placements. You can see that has a handle there in the middle. And just the typical things that you need to have on a wing board, as you could see how the volume of this is in a pretty volume forward on my boards. I like to have a lot of volume up forward when I'm winging, because we're going shorter and shorter board.

And you have a tendency when you're standing up forward, the board goes underwater. So like you come down off the plane and then all of a sudden the front goes under. It does a summary. So as you can see some of these, can you show us yeah. Maybe pick one up and move that chair out of the way. I'd show us the shape a little bit.

Yeah. Let's look here. This is 105 liter board is five, six, and you can see how we have a lot of thickness up in the front of here. Cause we get the five, six you get up forward. If you have the traditional theater noses that look really cool, they sink on their water. When you stand up here, basically we move the flotation of forward.

It's a little bit bigger, fuller outline up forward as compared to the tail. So it's reverse of what a lot of the boards are. That bigger tails, a lot of float in the back. I like to have the full rotation of forward. We've gone shorter and shorter, and it's easier to stand on something when it's like that this one you can see has the traditional, like wind surfing style footsteps.

This is 45 degrees here, and I have one strap in the back. I like to ride wind shift and style. It's really easy to switch your feet and stuff. You go from strap. A lot of people are coming from surfing background, have a problem with switching your feet. And so then you have foot straps that can go straight.

Like you're just going to go one direction. So it has the answer it's for going riding with just one set or footsteps, or you've got the list surfing style where you can switch your feet and go forward and start to learn how to go both ways. Because if you get in a problem where you're trying to get up and really like when TOSA.

You're crossed up on your bad tack. It's hard to get up like that. And it's hard to go up wind like that. So if you do get into light winds, it's easier to switch your feet better to learn in the beginning, because once you start going just tow side all the time, you never switch feet again.

The deck is pretty much flat. Or do you have like concave in the deck? Any kind of, I don't like on caves so much. I want everything to be a flat platform for my feet and nothing weird. And I don't concave too, because. I'd rather, if you fall on it, I want it to be flat and not have a little bit of a rounded edge to hit your shins or your knees or whatever.

I'd rather we're getting back on is easier on a slide deck. I find it. And you don't hit your elbow or whatever on that hitch. Yeah. Yeah. Like I used to ride on Connor. Baxter's, downwind board, he's got this big scoop out, all those star wars at the Umar and I'd fall on that thing.

I'm like, oh my God. And he has whacked myself with this heavy concave. So it's cut that system. I don't like that. So I figure if it works, don't make it all fancy. Like the same thing with the bottom sheets are real flat so that it has an easier release to pop up when you're planning it real light.

Is it a, if slat all the way to the nose and you have a little bit of convex in the nose, it was pretty much flat. The holes in soft rails, the rails in the back towards the tail of the board would have been, it's a little bit round here and you have a little bit of a kick in the last, behind your total box and your plates.

And can you show that the profile, the contour, like you said, it's a little bit thinner in the tail than in the notes. No. They're about the same thickness, but now are thicker in the front and thinner and the thickness keep about the same thickness. So don't go crazy with, making a super sick.

I don't like the way that feels when I'm winning. I want a lot of float up for, because most of the time on these short boards, like this board is my four, six. I tow with this and I wing with this and can kite with this also. But even with this board, it was one of the things too, when you're out of your boards you want the bone flow to be about the same so that when you sinking it, especially on sinker, it seems evenly because more of my boards, I have a pretty big it's a little bit thicker in the front than the back.

And I float like this and I go down and it's hard when you're sinking like that. Not really far forward and concentrate on the nose going down. So there's all types of, trial and error and into figuring out what really feels good for me. Always made my own board so I can go ahead and, make a board that week and test it again.

But I don't make custom boards anymore for other people, but the family still gets nice. Thanks for showing us that I'm going to show the screen share again real quick. Oh, sorry. Let me let me go back to that. So are you going to show your bottom here? You can see all of what the, oh, you got the measurement for where to place the foil and the bottom handle.

Yeah, I guess guide there. So like you use your, this is how far you are from the tail and the measurements. And then if you like your plate in certain position, you remember what your number is to go, okay I like it at, seven inches or whatever it is for the plate title of course goes in just one place.

When you got a, a nice. It's nice to have a handle on a wing board because getting in and out of the water is much more for me. And then on the deck, you don't have a handle though. So I don't like the handle on the deck because when I'm stepping all over the place and my toe gets in there, I've had a couple of problems with almost breaking my toe, like having all the dash.

Yeah. But then I guess when you're carrying them without the foil attaches, it's off balance, but you can, I guess you can still carry with that bottom, but you could still carry it. It feels a little bit nose heavy, especially on the bigger six oh board, but you can always, the smaller words really.

Yeah. Not that hard to carry it. Yeah. And I was going to show the different sizes you have available here. I guess you have a 46 by 44 liters, five oh, by 87 liters, five six by 106 liters and then 600 by 134 liters. So four different sizes. And when are those going to be available? Next week, I think container arrives next week could be the following week.

I don't know how much we get stuck with, trucking and customs in Honolulu. It's already in Honolulu. So I'm just going through the, the process of getting it over here. Nice. And then, oh, I think I had this on here too. So tell us a little bit about the co also making your own wings now, right?

Is that Craig, is this one of your prototypes? This is one of the prototypes. This is the actual version of the three. Which will it'll have stripes on it. It's got all the logos and stuff, and I moved the windows closer to the middle strut on the production style, but I've been using this thing since I want to say February or something, it's the the quality of it feels really good.

I haven't stretched it out, and it hasn't blown apart. And I put it through some tail this day is probably, a regular 25 to 30 knots. And just imagine some of the days where we're 35 to 40 and I'm still using that week. So they're built super solid. And what I like about my wings is what we did was make the bladders a little bit bigger to make them stiffer.

So when your sheet in with these things are not moving all over the place, like some of the wings, we got a little bit more of a, it feels like a windsurfing sail you shoot in, and it doesn't move all over the place. Yeah. And that makes them more powerful too, I'm, the Armstrong rings are like that, that they're really thick flatters, which make it more rigid and powerful.

It seems yeah. It looks like you made the wing tips pretty squared off. So you have less of a wing span to, is that one of the things you were working on or, just maybe talk us through the different prototypes, you try it out and what you've learned from trying different things.

We did with this is basically our, we call it our elliptical style. It's more of a standard style, but we do bring the wingtips closer together than some of the wings. Cause you'll notice how on, F1 or Armstrong have pretty long wingtips and you have a tendency to touch those in the water very easily.

So my wing tips are broadened together a little bit more on that. Ellipticals. So you got a little bit more cord in the middle. So think of it as a longer strut in the middle shorter wingspan, just to make it easier to turn without touching your tips. Then we have a square model, which is the one that I was writing at home keep.

Or the one day you might've seen that with the square model is better for really light wind so that when you're, you get on those bigger wings and you're having problems pumping, to get up. So they like you're, you just want to get foil, like that one, that's the square model.

You see how that one's way more square than that elliptical style you just saw. This looks almost a little bit more like a, that slick wing at a new Ken winners. S duotone one. Yeah that closer to a slick, whether you score off the ball just so that what I like about this is I do a lot of windsurfing style wave riding, hurting like that.

When I call it cheating in, you can keep the tip further up out of the water, but the main advantage of this one, forget all this hotdogs and stuff that I'm doing here is when it's really light. When you have problems pumping up to get onto a foil, it's a day where you're out. It's Hey, I wonder if I can get foiling today, and you go to the pump, and you keep touching your tip in the water and it stops the whole progression of trying to get up. You got to start all over again. So the square tips are made for that to where when you pump it, it's easier to pop up the foil and have a lot less problem of the wing tip touching while you're trying to accomplish them.

That's the biggest advantage of these square model. So the square models are made in the bigger size. It's like a four or five, a five, five and a six, five. Yeah, I totally agree with that. And that's one of the things about some of the earlier designs is when, you think you could use a bigger size to get it going in lighter winds, but then then the wing tips were so wide that you couldn't really create a lot of power with it because of it has, because it's like the wingtips is drag and you can't really bring it vertical.

You give you that forward power, this just lifts up, but you can't really get that forward momentum with it. That's where that, I think the square design makes a lot of sense. So you actually have two different wing designs or is it just by size or how does that work? You can wing styles, but it's by size where they convert over to the other ones.

So by elliptical side, Those 2, 2, 2 7, 2 7 is like a main state here in Maui. Everybody, when they get lit up over here, the two seven is really nice. I ride the three, five, and then the four or five. So those are the ellipticals. You got 2, 2, 2 7, 3, 5, 4 or five. Now the square model, like you saw in that last video is a four or 5, 5, 5, and six five.

So it's more towards the higher end because when I, those ones don't loft is easy. They're a little bit more unstable if you're just luffing and want to cruise down the coast and, hi, I win. So the medical ones, I like a little bit better for that. And my feedback from my riders that, you've got to get it, some of the intermediate and beginner riders, because feeling stuff that's different than you and they get on it all the way out.

This elliptical is way easier for me to. In handled. But when you get into that day, when it's six to eight knots and you cannot get foiling, like even my wife, she was, didn't like the square model, having all kinds of problems with it. And I'm like, I put her out in it's fairly windy. Then we have one day where it's not very windy.

She goes out with the four or five elliptical and she kept touching the tips and she's getting all upset. And I go, okay, here now try the square model. She goes, gets right up. She was like, oh, okay. Now I get

fantastic. So those wings you have available now for sale, you have them on Maui. No those are all prototypes as everybody who are having problems, getting wings, those will probably show up in September. If we're lucky. I said, yeah, we're going to start building them in August and we're going to ship them in September, then.

Nice. Oh, my shipping, do they have to go in a container or do I get a good rate to air freight them then what we won't know until we actually have the product and see how you take the ship. Yeah, let's talk about that a little bit. The whole pandemic thing and like what, how did it affect you and your business?

I know shipping has been a nightmare, like getting stuff shipped in containers and stuff like that. But other than that, like how did the whole pandemic workout for you at Maui? The pandemic here on Maui, it was we're out in the, to where, there's not as many people over here, they shut down the islands, nobody was loud and, people didn't want to leave because they couldn't get back in type of thing.

So I was in Florida when all this happened, we were doing a tour over there and demos all over the place. And then they're like, Hey, they're going to shut down the state. We got to fly back to. On a mad rush to get back home. And then I stayed there for a, since last March. No. Did I go anywhere?

I think I went to a wahoo last month when they finally opened it up to where I could go without all kinds of tests and get my nose probed and everything. I went anywhere. Maui is they closed down the beaches. We're not allowed to go to canal hall. They closed it all down and that's where we were all winging it from.

But you're allowed to go to the Harbor. So you go to the Harbor and what ended up happening was everybody had nothing to do and started learning how to go when they closed down the canoe guys, because the six man canoe, as you're too close to quarters and they wouldn't let them do a six man canoes and they have all the lessons and stuff from the teaching and races.

So they closed down. Basically the canoes were. The wing foiling, and then the wing Oilers just took over. There was no trap boat, traffic, and all, there was a bunch of wing boilers and all of a sudden you've got kids and grandmas and old windsurfers who had, and wind surfed in 25 years coming back into the water.

And it's, it was just crazy. There's some days there was 50 or 60 people down there and it's still going on down there now it's started a whole, a whinging. This COVID started a winging revolution on a big community down there. Yeah, that's awesome. And then more recently you had that you had a gold foil get together at that at a big house over there.

And I know my friend, Derek, Thomas Saki went over there and stuff. And talk a little bit about that. That was great. We do this usually once a year, we have we rent we have a friends that have the access to the house down. Yeah. And he lets us go into it for a weekend or whatever we're trying to do.

So we do go foil weekend and it's called come ride with us. And then we invite everybody from the outer islands that are, Gofoil riders like Derek and Kalani and lay, and Todd, and all these guys come over. They stay in the house and then all of the locals that are, are, go for riders of Maui, come down and ride with them and we get those guys just have a blast.

They've, it's like one of the best places in Maui that if you could own a house that would be one of your top pitch, wind sports. That's where that's the property you want to just launch right out of there. There's the summertime is the best place for winging. I feel on Maui it's, there's waves right out front and.

The boys, we, I take my boat there. As some of the videos, my boats right out front and there we use the boat to get up to malico and film them coming down. Peter King was taking all kinds of videos from the boat and the boys from a wahoo and Kauai, all they want to do is do a down winder from Mullica and what best fun is right out there.

And those were like, no, we want to do downwinders. So they just want to do two downwinders a day and just come back to the house or go to the Harbor to do the, the full Monte. And they just have a blast. Yeah. That's awesome. Yeah, it sounds like they had a lot of fun. They were definitely posting a lot of videos and photos and that trip, I was jealous Derek he's we'll do two downwinders and then at the end of the day, he'll take fuzzy or Who else was he with Garrett and they just take off for a evening run to the Harbor.

It's like the can't get enough. It's getting it's after five o'clock winds getting a little sketchy down by, there we go. We're going to the Harbor house out there, down to the Harbor. Just great times. Yeah. Yeah. When you call a sketchy win on Maui as for us as probably pretty good conditions on Oahu, it's funny.

It's a joke when they all show up. And I check the forecast on window room before they come over and I go, okay, forecast looks good. And the boys are like, okay what do we need to bring? I go make sure you bring your three just in case. And then when they get over here, it's blowing hell again.

It's 35 knots every day. And I go when was the last time you guys were in this kind of window? Last year when we were here. Yeah. You don't get 35 knots an hour, really rarely a hurricane coming through. I've been up the coast and we're going back up to malico and then you start to see lanes and just pass mama's fish house for people who know the area, you're getting up to keep a, you see all these white cats and then it was Derek or fuzzy.

One of them's goes, he goes, you know what? We see little patches of white caps like that in our courses in a while, who in collide, but we don't see the whole ocean look like that. The whole ocean's wife, white cats all the way to call Harbor. So they just, they love it over here.

Yeah. It's like smoke on the water, but but yeah. Tell us about four or five with a. The five oh board. So that things like 85, 87 liters, a four or five wing. So when you at Rooney ride with the wind, a wind powered up versus just holding it on the side, like what is, I guess you just have more speed or what, why do you do it sometimes? What, why do you hold onto the wing versus holding it next to you?

Do you power? Me being an old wind sear for, I liked that style that we ain't able to jam turns with full power and just feeling the juice of it. I could turn sharper and turn harder like that when I'm windsurfing, as opposed to luffing, like this is not as, I can't turn as quick, it's still a lot of fun to turn luffing, but wind surfing style turn, that's gets back to my roots, to where I really like to do.

So are you working on any new thing, new moves or new tricks or anything like that? Or what are you into these days? Like when you go in funding, are there any tricks you're trying to learn or anything like that? Occasionally I'll go into trying to learn some new tricks. Like the what was I doing the other day?

It's like at the end of the one video, I tried to do a luffing move at the end of attack. And I dragged the wing behind me while I'm tacking, as opposed to putting the wing up above my head when I'm tacking. Yeah. Behind the back luffing tack. And I was one of the things I was working on this week, but I've got a lot of new racing foils that showed up.

I'm supposed to test for production that comes out and several months. So the last three days I've been just going super fast, trying the really small ones. Cause we had a race. What was it? The paddle of Moolah race we did two weeks ago from Maliko to Kanawha. And in that one, you get to experiment with a little bit of your fastest foils and cheated in the whole way, going down wind.

And so I'm progressing with the feedback I got from that to try and make something even faster than what I was on. So in the video, this was your wife, Carla

that's Carla, right there. That's that? What size wing is that? It looks tiny. The two seven, that's a magic size for Maui because it's blowing 35 constantly. Yeah, no problems writing because they're getting beat up out there, but you see how solid that wing is. It's really rock solid and easy to ride and a lot of wind.

Yeah. And so you went on a downloader with a 70 year old friend of yours is that he was having a blast, had a lot of fun with that. He was talking about doing is his downwind or this guy right here. This is Ken right here. And this is his wife. And this is Allen they're talking about before we go.

And it wasn't very windy that day. That's really went from, so the, he had a little bit of trouble getting up, coming back in after he fell in. So this was his first down winter. So he was just really happy that we all. That's the great thing about whinging. You've got a seven year old guy just having a blast.

He's learned a new sport and he's just oh my God, this is fun. So I'm teaching or leading a a young lady. I think she's 70 years old, down at the Harbor right now use the 5 0 85 leaderboard. And she's just, she's an old, older windsurfer who just you'll be windsurfing for years. And now she started foiling and she sent me a text last night, says, oh my God, I got foiling today.

Most of most foiling I've done so far, I'm having so much fun. And it's just, there's a lot of people in all different age groups really gravitating to this wing. Yeah. What would you say like for you? What, why is winging so addictive and why is it so fun? I think that one of the best aspects of winging it.

You're combining the foiling, like what I've been doing standup foiling, in waves or standup foiling, what I'm, racing down the coast and you've got this wing that can let you do all of that in case you can't get enough power to, get going again. You just shoot in with your wing and get going again.

Like the stuff we're doing out downwind, like the other, that other video where I'm just surfing down one with three, five, you can't, I've done lots of wind surfing. Downwinders kiting downwinders, but there's nothing like winging down with you, just cruise and you're surfing down the coast and riding these waves and you can't slow down like that on your wind share for as soon as you're on sheet, you're going to stop and competing is just you're you can't, you're not connected with the water as much.

You're more connected with your kite when you're kite flight. Know, you're outrunning the waves a lot when you're yeah. And you can't completely de power and then just put it, put it aside basically. Yeah. When you start doing that, what ends up happening? You forget about your cut and then,

cause I interviewed both Alan and mark  and they both said that. Yeah, basically Ken Ken winner got into it when basically they used to do the standard pallet downwinders together and then, Ken was struggling to get going with the paddle. So he that's why you started making those wings, so you could keep up with Alan and mark doing the downwinders I guess foiling and then yeah that, that's how they got interested in it too. When Ken started making all of that stuff, Alan gravitated to him straight away, he was because Alan looked across the street from Ken.

We could test together and Hey, you want to try this thing and let's go test this model and I need some feedback. So he uses Allen as a test partner. They were just testing two days ago. And you know where it is from Allen at the latest greatest stuff from Ken is rip thing. Ken's always been progressing that and that's how he started.

He was paddling from CU, with Alan all the time. And that was the old malico 200 days trying to go down, wind foiling. And I think Ken kept hurting his shoulder and it was too much on him. And that got him into whinging. Why for winging down wind for that? It's not, yeah, I've been trying to get Ken winter on the show too.

One day. I'll hopefully get him to agree to come on. And I've been trying to get you on the show. So thanks for finally doing it. But one thing I always like to ask everybody is. Your, your skills, your wa water, sports skills. Is it a result of your like, kind of God-given talents or your natural born talents, or is it like practice and, spending time and, work, working on it repetition and so on.

For me, it's a little bit of both, I've got pretty good balance and stuff and not, super stupid or anything. So figure these things out pretty fast. But for other people, it's, some people are just raw talents that just pick it up. You can't believe like an Austin camo or Kayden Pritchard that just got, they're just boozing talent, and then other people just have to work at it.

It's Hey, you got to practice this. You've got to dial in your equipment. You've got to, figure it out. Okay. I'm getting too much lift and what is causing that? Do I need to move my mask back or forward? And some people would really have to work at it hard and it just comes from repetition and it's like riding a bike, you got to get used to it.

And me I've been foiling so long and made all of these terrible tight foils in the beginning. So I learned to ride all of this crummy stuff and what was causing it. So I'm at an advantage to get on something and go, oh, we should do this to make this feel balanced. Where a lot of my friends, I have to get on their equipment and say, oh, wait a minute.

This doesn't feel right. You needed to feel like this. And this is what you should to do. So there's a lot to learn about, what is causing you to feel like you're over foiling or you've got too much lift or not enough lift, are you doing a lot of this? Porpoising that usually means. You don't have enough lift.

You need a little bit more lift to have something to steady against. If it's doing this all the time, it's like wherever you point the foil, it goes. So put a little more lift in it to have something to stand on. Just little things like that. Or just little tips that some people, it takes a while to learn what that is all about.

I get those questions all the time. So what are some tips that you give to beginners that are trying to get into foiling or wing flooding? What are some good pointers that people can use to, to get started or progress? What I recommend that you try to get into some fairly flat water to where you don't want a real bumping when you first learned the wing and you want to have if you could, pick your ideal wind conditions, it would be like 15 knots steady wind.

You can put on the wing, feel the wind and know exactly where it's coming from. Put on a fairly big foil, and you need to try to stay closer to the center of your board. If you're with straps or without straps, be closer to the center line of the board. That's where you have your best balance. And you've got to remember that foiling is a front leg sport.

You've got to learn to when I get up, don't lean back, like you're surfing or wind surfing. You got to lean forward. It's you're almost standing up more vertical and be towards the front of the board. You get up. It's more like you're standing on your front quad. You're not on your back quad. Don't put your shoulders backwards towards the back of the board.

So those are some of the first tips when you're first learning to win. I like this picture. It shows that really well. Yeah. Leaning on your front foot. She is. All the way forward and look at how she's standing on that front quad, all of her wings right there, and she's pretty vertical. So that's, you need to be balanced and she's basically in the center of that board.

So you have a good platform to feel that foil in the center of it. Some people like Derek will ride his feet, all cup of coffee, all over the board. I know he's got to like really almost diagonal, like on one. Yeah. One on each side of the board, but like words are free. So yeah, he definitely is.

Cool. So I guess what I wanted to ask you too, is do you ever have like days where like everything clicks and you're like totally in the zone and you everything just works and you can pull off all kinds of tricks. And then the next day, you're using the same gear the, in the same conditions and you're.

Not feeling it. And you're a coop, I, that happens to me all the time. And then wondering what is it, why, why can I be in that zone? Why do I feel that sometimes? And why don't other times, do you have any tips on how to get into that state of mind or like where you, where everything clicks, Ooh, I'm not sure how to do that.

I don't usually have that problem where normally when I'm not having a good day, it's because it's too windy or I took the wrong equipment. But the, you have to learn that too. It's Hey, you might think every day is the same, but it might not be the same. You're just not aware of it. But another thing could be that, you've been going hard all week and you need a break.

You need to rest it a little bit. And you're just, you ran out of gas, Yeah, that's true. I noticed sometimes when I'd take a break for a few days and then I go back out again, I'm like all fresh and I can, yeah. It's everything works way better than when, after a long session, when you get tired, that's when you hurt yourself and stuff too.

At the end of the long session. Yeah. I was racing around with Peter slate yesterday and I did a whole full first session and did three laps around our course that we ride. And then he shows up, he goes, Hey, come on. Let's go. And then we went back out and I proceeded to start falling all over the place and okay, you better wrap it up.

You spent your load today. Just go back to the beach houses everywhere. So yeah, you gotta know, you gotta know when to stop sometimes, right? Yeah. You gotta know when to stop. I didn't do it the other day. And it was really windy and I proceeded to put three holes in my way with flipping my foil upside down.

And hadn't done that in a while, but I managed to do it the other day when I got real tired. So yeah, another question I always like to ask like a lot, lot of people during them pandemic felt like, lonely or frustrated, depressed, whatever. And just when you're having a bad day or something like that, what do you do to make yourself feel better, getting into a better state of mind.

And, but we're going to say that you can't go wing foiling or go in the water. It's what else do you do? Cause everybody says that, oh, I just go  I feel fine. But what do you do to make yourself put yourself in a better state of mind chilling down or something? Shoot I don't usually have those problems, but what I do notice that some of the people that do have these problems is they watch too much of the news and it's Hey, don't go in there and start dwelling on what they're all talking about and all of the problems that are happening worldwide or whatever.

The latest thing is going on to watch some nice movies or listen to some music, do not watch the news. That'll bring you down. I never presented agree. That, they're just trying to, they're just trying to sensationalize everything and make it look worse than it is. So is there anyone you want to thank for helping you out over the years or that supporting you?

The main people, what I, the way I hope revolved around this lifestyle would be my parents, just having them. The balls and the foresight to just jump into this wind surfing thing back in the early days, and it was a chant, a risky business, what is this?

Hey, you're supporting the whole family. I've, we're going to do it by doing this wind surfing stuff. So they've supported me. My brother, both of my sisters were expert windsurfers back in the day. And that was, got us on this path to basically our whole life revolved around wind sports.

After that there were revolved around the water. It's just, no, it was just perfect timing. We went on up, a trip to the Virgin islands and just Scott just got really fortunate. And so your whole family was passionate about, it's not like it's not. Like tiger woods. His dad like always pushed him to play golf or something like that and know became super good golf player, but then also the kind of a troubled person that seems so for you, it was like, you were always passionate about it and love doing it is that yeah.

And we always loved doing it. It was like, we were all we grew up around sports, we played football in the neighborhood. We were baseball in a neighborhood where went through, literally, we went through football, little league and and all of that stuff. And so we were always around sports.

So when this came out, it was like, like doing another sport. We were just doing it in the water and we just grab it, Intuit, all the kids did. And it was just, when you go to those races, your adrenaline gets all up, when you're doing well. And it's it's one of those things too, when you have your, my brother were like a year ago, And we were like two of the best wind surfers in the world and we always practiced together and we're always trying to beat each other and having that really helped us get to where we were.

It's like sibling rivalry a little bit. Yeah. We'll look at fin and Jeffrey Spencer now see, you think it's two brothers pretty close in age, just always with each other and they push off of each other, they're doing or racing down when, and it's, it really helps, to have somebody that good as your training partner and you're always together, it's and you've blessed.

You've got a little bit of a thing. I got a feat. He's my brother. Yeah. That really worked out great for us. Yeah. Awesome. Would you say that foiling or wing filing is an addiction? Like it's like something you crave and is there a dark side to it? Is there a dark side to being addicted to four lanes?

For me, yeah, I'm really addicted to all types of foiling, but the wind foiling, especially when the conditions are great, I go to Wingfoot, especially sometimes if it's blowing like hell for awhile, I'll go downwind, foiling and paddle with Dave and stuff. Cause that's what he really likes to do. And yeah, you just it's just so much fun that you gravitate to.

The what was the rest of the question I was asking you if there's a dark side, like what I'm trying to get all my work done more quickly so I can get on the water, because it's like blowing outside or something like that. But for me, I find it, it's motivating me to get my work done more quickly and be more, more effective or productive or whatever.

But I just wondering if cause usually addiction is like, has a negative connotation, right? So is there, is it a good thing or a bad thing? For me it's a good thing, but I've got an excuse, cause I, I tell my wife, I'm going to the office. I don't want to hear about it. So I've got an excuse, but there's a lot of people.

I heard this from lay on the other day he goes and my one buddy is having a whole lot of problems, and he's going to have problems with his marriage and stuff. What is he into drugs or something? That's no man. He's into foiling. Oh, I guess some people take it too. Yeah. He never goes home and all he wants to do is go weed.

So I guess there is some people out there that do have a crazed addiction going on. Yeah, for sure. So is there anyone else you think I should interview for the, on the beats on it? Show about wing filings, winning, falling? Yeah. I would try to get a hold of the sea. Ken winter would be a really good guy.

Yeah. You've already done Al and he's one of the main guys that would do it over here. Shoot. I don't know. Maybe we're waiting for who would be a good. Actually, I should try to interview Derek actually, Derek, come on Saki. I think it would be something to talk to. I'm talking about him a bunch, Derek.

Yeah. He'd be a good guy to, to go with. He's a, Derek's a funny guy because I make all kinds of stuff all the time for people, all over the world and stuff, they just love it, this and that. But for Derek, he's got these different ideas about what he feels and this and that. And it's like hard to make stuff for Derek because he's just, he's a special rider.

You'll like this one tail wing that I hate and he just loves it. And it's just it's funny. It's I gave him a hard time all the time. It's no why are you doing that outcome? You're writing nothing. And he's I just love it. It's what I'm used to. Yeah. Classic. Yeah. So do you have any special message for those people that are still watching?

I usually say it's just like a tiny sliver of people that watch. So the very end, we get like most people have left by now, but so do you have any special message for those still watching? Shoot. I would tell you that, if you are an older windsurfer or kinder or whatever, you really should try this wing, the wing foiling, it's less pounding on your body and stuff.

And once you learn how to do it, you're just easing across the water and it's you could get, you've got places you can go to that you normally wouldn't be able to kite or whatever. There's easy access to get into the water. If it all goes wrong, you just paddle back in with your wing behind. It's just a great fun sport.

You can do it in pretty light wind, and we'll probably get to where we can do it in even lighter winds in the future. Yeah. So it sounds like you think that this is going to be become a pretty big sport globally, right? I think so, especially in Europe, because anybody who knows wind surfing Europe really is popular in Europe.

It blew up in Europe, 10 fold over what it ever did in the United States. And I could see that there would be, thousands and thousands of wingers over in Europe, all between Germany and France and all the lakes, even Switzerland as some really key places for wind surfing and stuff over the years.

And some of those lakes, Italy and lake Garda, it's probably already blown up there. It's really going to get popular and it could get more popular. Yeah, no, I think so too. Yeah. I interviewed Baltz Miller. I think it was like January or February. And he said, it was freezing cold in Switzerland.

And he said like the lake was crowded with people. That's kinda nuts, but yeah. All right. Thanks so much. I think that's a good note to end it on. So thanks so much for your time. And finally coming on the show. Good luck with everything with your new products. All right, Robert, good talking to you.

Yeah. Good talking to you too. Thanks for sharing all of us. All right. Cool. All right. Have a great rest of your day lot. All right. Thanks for sticking around for the whole show. I really appreciate it. I always joke that only about 5% of those who click on the video actually watched the whole thing. So you were part of that elite 5%.

Congratulations. And thank you. All of you who support blue planet, you are the ones who make it possible for us to put together this show. And I really appreciate everybody who supports blue planet, and then also make sure to check out our new shop in Holly, Eva. Right next to the rainbow bridge, we do stand up paddle kayaking and surf board rentals there.

And we have a really cool shop with lots of goodies. So if you're visiting or Yahoo, make sure to come by the new blue planet shop in Hollywood. I hope to come out with another blue planet show soon. So stick around and also check out the podcast version of the blue planet show on your favorite podcast app.

Just search for it. On that show and this should come right up. So thanks again for watching. Take care of you. One to you on the water. Aloha. .

Kevin and Kaden Pritchard- Wing Foil interview- Blue Planet Show #14

Aloha friends. It's Robert Stehlik, welcome to another episode of the blue planet show.  On this show I interview Wing Foil athletes, not only about the technique and the gear that they use, but I also try to get to know them a little bit better, their background, what makes them tick, what inspires them and how they live their best life.

It's a long form format. So if you'd like in-depth information, then you're going to love this show.  I really appreciate you. I know not everyone has time to watch it on YouTube with the visuals. I think it's great, but you can, of course, also listen to it as a podcast with audio only, just search your favorite podcast app for "the blue planet show".  Today's interview is with Kevin and Kaden Pritchard.

Kevin Pritchard is a multiple time wind surf world champion. Him and his brother, both Matt Pritchard and Matt's son, Kaden is 12 years old and he's only been winging for about a year. And he's already doing crazy moves: back flips and he's working on forward flips and he breaks down technique for me on the Flaka, which really helped me out too.

So there's some really good stuff in here. And just the whole story about the Pritchard family living on Maui, basically because a friend gave a wind surf board to Kevin's dad. So that's what led to the whole family living that lifestyle now. So I thought that was great. Really interesting story. Good to see the two generations together and hope you enjoy this show as much as I did.

And without further ado, please welcome the Pritchards!  Okay. Kevin and Kaden Prichard. Welcome to the Blue Planet Show. Thanks so much for making some time to join me. How you guys doing today? Yeah, thanks for having us. I was like, checking you out on that. On the internet and it's oh, let's do something.

Could be cool. We've got Kaden who's starting to really start to rip on the wing foil. And yeah. That's cool. Yeah. Thanks for reaching out to me. I appreciate that. And and I saw you, you just started a YouTube channel and blogging and all that kind of stuff too. So I always like to collaborate with other people that try to create content and stuff like that.

So it's great to have you guys, and you're both on Nali right now, right? And where are you at? It looks like you got a lot of gear behind you. There we are in my dad's workshop or yeah, his dad. We have a little rental. Wind surfing thing. So renting the waves and stuff over here on Maui. And my brother does a lot of lessons teaching, wind surfing.

And he's been, has he been teaching leaning to a little bit Kayden? So your dad is Kevin's brother. That's how you relate okay. What's your dad's name? Okay. And then Kevin you been a long time windsurfer multiple time world champion and stuff like that. So then what, can you talk a little bit about your career actually, let's start with where you grew up and how you got into it and all that kind of stuff.

Yeah. I grew up in California and actually my brother and I, we started windsurfing together with my parents and my mom and my dad. And like we all used to travel around, we'd go to hood river and we lived in California, so we just started my dad was addicted to it, so he just took us with us and just, we all fell in love with the sport and it was super fun and yeah, just started wind surfing all the time and we got into it and then my brother moved to Maui in 92.

I think it was. And then I moved in 94. And then we just started going, doing the world tour together and just like step-by-step got better and better. And then yeah, it was awesome. We, he won a bunch of world titles and I won some world titles. It's crazy how a sport can take you and change your life.

It's like we started in California together and now our whole family's here. And then he's had a family of two kids and it's pretty fun watching the Caden grow up to in the mix of, what we used to do as a family, go and wind surf and all this stuff. And his, my dad, his grandfather is I would say he's his biggest, person helping him go down to the beach and doing winging. And my dad's learned a wing and he's 70. So they go down together all the time and it's pretty cool. So we've got a family atmosphere that we've had all our lives and to see it getting passed down has been, it's been fun.

Cool. So how old are you now? I'm 45. And what about UK? 11. 11. All right. Cool. So how, when did you stop competing professionally as a windsurfer or are you still competing or no. I would say it's pretty cool. I won the law classic in 2000 and then I won it in 2017.

I think it was. 16 2016. So having I had a amazing career of 16 years of, still being, near the top. And that was one of my best moments was just, like 16 years later when it beaten these kids out who keep that was, it was special conditions with big waves and weird conditions, but still it was it was a good feeling to end your career on top and that's awesome.

So that was only four years ago. You won that law classic, something like that. That's awesome. And then I do a bunch of testing for the wind surfing company as he sails and. Got more into that, brand ambassador and I'm still surfing every day. It's good. And testing the equipment, testing the gear and using the knowledge of all those years of competing and wind surfing to, make products better and things like that.

So what do you do now mostly like where do you live mostly and what do you do? And so on. Nowadays I live on Maui and just have fun. I get to, go winging if it's like right now in the summertime. I haven't gone yet, but last summer I went a couple of times and I liked the just like the variety right now, just if it's good for cutting go cutting.

It's good for wind surfing, go wind surfing, unless it's there's a, different seasons of when sales come out. When it's a busy test season from testing the winter thing here and then otherwise just just having fun. Yeah. And I'm just gonna play your this is like your new YouTube channel, and this is in Mexico, right? Yeah. You spend a lot of time in Mexico or in Baja. Yeah. This is kinda, this is where my brother and I would come down and we learned, I would say we learned wave sailing here because we, it was probably an eight hour drive from Southern California.

And we would come down to this spot and learn the way. So it was pretty, it was like a kind of a. It's a long way. So you get a lot of turns and you can work on your sailing technique really easily. So it's, I think it's one of the best spots in the world for progressing your, your sailing or your whatever.

When I was down here, there's this guy out there weaning and he was catching like, I dunno, 300 waves a day or something ridiculous like that, but it's pretty cool. Definitely a good spot that got you interested in and foiling as well. Yeah. How is that going? I guess you were talking about just starting to spoil and struggling with it a little bit.

Yeah. I think the wind surfer on the foil is the hardest device. I don't know why they're either. Maybe nobody has really Stepped up the R and D with it, but the way wave, wind surf, foiling. I don't know. I've struggled with it. You just have so much power in the sale, you know where the wing, you can just get rid of it.

And same with the kite where the wind surfing. It just it's hard. I don't know. I had a hard time with it anyways, right? Yeah. I actually haven't even really tried wind surfing with the foil. I used to wind surf all the time, but with the foil, I think it's like a whole different thing.

And yeah, I think the foil and the wing just work really well together. Like you said, you can power it and ride the wave more like surfing the foils rather than the using the wind power. Yeah. It's pretty cool to watch him and see how like confident, like I was, I seem to be like carving little things with the foil and I think.

If I could do that on surf board, which, would be the goal. It would be cool, but I don't know. I guess I got to put more time into it, like he's on the water all the time, so I'm not quite used to the foil as much as I should be, so in Baja, you also have you run like camps as well, like brother does.

And that's where it would be, like I was saying, it's just awesome for just the waves are just endless. So for learning, it's incredible, it'd be fun to do a clinic with this kid down there if he could be in the cold water, but

all right. Okay Kayden, let's talk a little bit about you now. How did I guess you were 11 years old, obviously still go to school, right? Yeah. Where do you go to school? Which school do you go to? I have a homeschool this past year. I've been getting a lot of time on the water and then next year, the Seaberry.

Obviously you can drive it. So how do you get to the beach who takes you and so on? My grandpa has been taking me basically every time I want to go for since June, I would say right since June last year. So is that part of your homeschooling PE program is going wink, foiling.

Yeah, no, you got time off, but so are you born and raised on Maui and how did you get, like, how did you get into water sports? What's your earliest memory of surfing or water sports? So on I started surfing with my dad when I was like three, and then when I was like five or six, I started doing it by myself and I loved it.

And that's what I did till I was like nine or nine or 10. I still do it. But then I got into wind surfing and then one day my grandpa came to my house and just said, let's go win. And I didn't really want to go. But then I went. Down there. I loved it. And so when was this about a year ago or two years ago, or do you remember when, how long ago?

That was a year ago. On July. Wait on June 1st. Wow. So pretty much exactly in one year. And now you're doing all these crazy moves. Yeah. So you're progressing pretty quickly, obviously. Like for those of you who don't know, I'm going to share some video of you doing some of these crazy moves.

So at T talk a little bit about the back split. When did you learn to do that? And. Maybe let's try to break down that move a little bit. And what was most challenging about learning it and so on? The most challenging part is you rip your wing lot.

Yeah. And, but once you get nice waves to launch off of, it's not that difficult because basically once you get halfway around, like upside down, then once you get

and to get right there, then the wind will just blow you around. So it's the hardest part is to just pull your board around. Is this where is this? Where are you? Where is this at? This is car point it's in between Harbor and canal. Yeah, but it's not like you're launching off of huge waves.

You're just launching off some smaller chop. It looks like a little swells case. So talk a little bit about the approaching the jump. I think that's something that most people overlook that when you're jumping, it's really important to come low and then get your foil at a really steep angle on the exit.

Like this, you can see how your foil is going up at it's pretty steep angle. Yeah. And especially with the backflip, what I was trying when I was first learning it is, I was just like going super fast and trying to spin like as fast as I can, but I learned. That it's easier to do it slower when you have a bigger ramp and stuff.

Okay. So getting more height and just rotating a little bit more slowly, and then you really throw back your head. Is that is it, does that, I guess that just helps you commit to the rotation. Yeah. I have three rotate better and it's just how I do it. I don't know. Yeah. So you said you've ripped a lot of wings, so is it, is that from the, when you lose your board and it falls onto the wing on the landing?

Or how did you rip the wings? Sometimes I just pop up and there's a rip in my link. So what I'm guessing, it's probably from like, when I land and say, my board gets like falls off my face. It like, that's and then it'll flip over onto the way. So that's what happened in the most, but there were some times where like I would fall on to my wing would fall on my foil.

So it's not all perfect. Let me see in the video and then get it fixed for you.

My dad, he just got he's. He's amazing. He got a sewing machine, so he's been he's been doing like all these little projects with making little harnesses and leashes that work really well for my dad. I dunno. Do you use them or not? Yeah, I have one he's like Mr. MacGyver. My dad was like the original band life guy.

Like when we were kids, we had this van that we pack all our stuff into and go down to Baja. And that was, 25 years ago, 30 years ago. And now it's the rage is band life, man life. And my dad was a builder and that's actually how we started wind surfing is he was building a house for a guy and the guy was still some wind surfing.

And for my dad's birthday, he gave him a wind surfer. And so he just started wind surfing. And I was wanting to write that guy that gave my dad the windsurfer, because it changed our lives. It changed Kayden's life just to, like this one dude. My dad had wind surfer for his birthday, and now we're in Maui.

We got the shot. We got, I, when I was traveling, I was, I traveled for a million miles on American airlines, so like from that one, dude, I S both my brother and I have been so blessed, like just like seeing the world, doing all this fun stuff. And, it's crazy that a sport can take you, having fun.

We'd sure we worked hard at it, but, we had the time of our lives just from this, from this one guy. That's awesome. That's a great story. Yeah, you should definitely contact him and say, tell him, Hey, look what you started. And our hope, my dad, mom and dad, both.

Here and family grandparents just moved here. So it's pretty cool. Where in California, did you grow up? We grew up in like the worst spot ever for wind surfing. I think it was like sand in between San Diego and LA and then inland. It was like Riverside area and there's a couple of lakes around where my dad got the wind surfer.

It was built. He was building houses in canyon lake it's called and is terrible for wind surfing, but still got us hooked, and not to, get all this, just from him doing it. We the first place I learned, I was like seven, so I was smaller than him. And they only had big gear back then, My dad had advanced to the ponds.

This is like these two, 300 meter long ponds, percolation ponds out in the middle of the desert. And it was the windy spot where you could, you wouldn't get in trouble if you drifted downwind or whatever. And my parents have been learning on the original windsurfer and then they got smaller and smaller gear.

And I remember one day I was just sitting in the car. I was like, so bored. I'm like, ah, dad, just let me try this short board, and they're like, no, you can't do that. You got to learn on the long board or whatever. And I'm like, just let me try it on. So board. And I remember it still, like probably the only thing that I remember my childhood, but I remember getting on the wind surfer and like somehow after watching them for so long, I just got on it and I went flying down this, the pond and my board as I was like reeling down full plane, like nine years old on this tiny Windsor for it.

And I was just, was flying down it. And after that I was just like, oh my gosh, I want to do that again. I had to walk back, cause I didn't know what I was doing. I was just like, somehow just watched what they did and yeah, that little, first little glide, changed all our lives. Change your, your Maui because of that first sensation or a walk definitely changed my life too.

Yeah. For that first sensation where you're like, oh my gosh, you're right. Harnessing the wind, something can't even see and the last you down the, down the water and it's a pretty cool feeling. Yeah. And then, yeah. That's awesome. Good. How does it feel when you're on the wing? You're like flying, right?

Yeah. Maybe you talk about your very first experience when you first got on the wing foiler and how that was learning it. The first time I got on the lane foil, I didn't really get up on foil, like I just got up and then I fell and then three or two days later, I got up on foil and I went all the way in on foil.

And I was just like, this is the best sport ever be better than surfing. And then since then, I just kept going every day and, yeah. Awesome. So before you started winging filing, you never foiled before, that was how you learned how to foil as well. Yeah, that was the first time I learned how to foil or actually I think I went out with you yeah, that was the first spoiling experience I think I had.

So Caitlin, how do you know, how about how much you weigh I'm about like 85 pounds, 85 pounds. Can you talk a little bit about the gear you use now? What size board and winging and foil. Yeah I've been using like, I used to be always like the guy I'm the biggest way now.

And now I realized that the smaller, as a way, you can do more tricks and spins with it. So my go-to has been two eight. And so what is, what brand is the one that you're using? The two eight I'm using the gastro wings, because they're like, they're not super, super stiff. It's like you can, when you do this stuff, they'll then you're in the ways that you need them to.

And that's super nice for me because I'm such a stiff wing. It would be really hard to do the flips because it would just want to, not it wouldn't bend for me two eighties, that pretty much all the time. Or do you have a bigger wing for lighter wind and the smaller one for stronger wind? Or how does that work?

Yeah, I have the two way is for super windy conditions and then I have three, five and four too, and then actually took my brother out foiling on five two. And I don't think I ever want to do that again. Such a big waste. Did you see that, that, did you post the video or just the shot? Yeah, let me share that.

And so there's a photo of you and your Instagram account. This on here is pretty cool. Cause I took the photo, but

Yeah, they went out and it was really light wind day. It was, I think his grandpa's birthday. Huh? We were all down there kind of cruise in with my dad for his birthday. And I went out and this is funny. Like it was too light for me, so I drifted downwind and then this guy comes running down the beach.

It's oh, I'll get that for you. And he's like sales, a backup. I'm like, Ooh, this is a, little humbling of this helped me out, but way better than carrying it back up. So I didn't care. And then he gets and he's because when he was 4, 3, 4 or five, something like that, I took him windsurfing and we did a tandem.

And we were like going out. I had a great time. He looked like he had a great time and his is his mom and dad are little conservatives. And so when I took him out, I was like, we are going to full speed out doing big old jumps and stuff. We actually jumped so high. We broke the board together. So that was pretty funny.

And then it was cool. We'll see him take out his little brother and at first they're going and I'm like, come on and get him on the foil, just get them on the foil. And finally got up and they're like cruising around on the foil. And then they even did a job on the didn't even, like who we does that I can't.

Do a job on the foil barely. So it was pretty fun to watch. That's a huge win for you to an ad board, yeah. It's like the belt size. Yeah. It was huge everything because the first time I took them out, I was on a go for at one 30, with a 17 and a half tail and the 36 inch max. And then I went back out on the Eva friendly and the Kai tail and I'm just like, oh, this is so much lift.

And then I got up and next time I want to try a smaller foils. I w I want them to put foot straps on the thing so they can do big airs.

That's cool. So you using gold foils, gastro wings and who's making your boards? Fabian I don't know how to pronounce his last name, but Fabian's making my boards. That brand is taboo and yeah, we're doing lots of experiments with the boards and I really like that. Do you have one of your boards there that you can show us how it looks and stuff to shape?

So I guess you'd also so after you started a wing filing, you also started prone, surf, foiling. Yeah. This is my circle board and I also wing it and I love this board for wave riding and stuff cause it's really turny. And then it has. Nice nose and rocker and all that stuff. It's the bottom shape too.

It looks like a double concave, pretty hard edges. And then a kind of concave rails with concaves and then show us all what the size and volume is about on that board. I think this board is 25 leaders and it's a four. Oh.

And then you just have two foot straps that are in the center. So do you, when you switch directions, you always switch your feet or most of the time, or with the feet in the same place.

Or do you switch feed or do you keep them in the same position? Mostly I switched my feet most of the times, because when I do the back flip, my feet are switched in goofy foot, but I'm regular flip. That's also what made the back foot a lot, little harder. So can you do the back flip going both directions?

Can you do going into, I haven't tried yet because I haven't really got like a good ramp to do it often. Cause it seemed like Jeff, like Jeffrey, Spencer, does this backflips always going in right. Coming in? Yeah. I want to try I'm up on a wave or like a wind shop. Yeah. I was talking to the guy Tetouan Galera from new Caledonia.

He, they had a contest and they were doing back flips in saltwater, basically straight off shore, wind, total salt water. And there were, I guess it's definitely possible to, you just have to really get some height and push off on the jump, yeah. I want to try it on flat water, but I'm scared.

Yeah. Yeah. It's here with a shorter mask cause you can rotate it. What you didn't talk about your foot and then maybe yeah. Maybe show us your foil set up to what length, how long is your mask? My master's at 36 inch max. Oh, that's pretty long. Yeah. It's really long. But for the flips and stuff, I was on a 32 here and I'm on the L 100 for 'em go foil and the 12 and a half tail.

That was what I did for the flip. And then I also was on the TKR 80 for that one video that you were showing of the flip, a nice changes or what you're hoping to do in the future. I am hoping to like, make some foil, I don't know how it would be shaped or what, but this was for surf boiling and wink boiling too.

But I would want something that turns. Super well, and then pumps super well for surf boiling. And then for weighing foiling, I would want something fast and really turn. So I like turning. Yeah. So fast, probably thinner than her profile and so on. Yeah. But yeah, that's one nice thing about the Gofoil stuff is Alex is down at the beach and he's been very generous to Kayden, like with prototyping stuff.

Then before Kayden this guy, it was a he's a bit stubborn on changing stuff. Once he like something he's nah, not going to do it. I'm going to go on my four, two are going to go on my 42. And I was telling him, I'm like, oh, okay. Didn't you need a smaller wing. You can go higher, faster. And this and that.

And then yeah. Alex will be like, Hey, maybe you should try this. Maybe you should just try that. And then yeah, but it's great to have Alex. Alex is such a pioneer of foil design and so on and always experimenting and tinkering. So it's

yeah, for sure. Yeah. So w what do you mean by pop when you say you want the foot to have popped? Is that just like to get more height when you jump kind of thing popping out of the water? I I think more pop for me. It's usually like a short tail, like really sure there, cause I can lift out of the water and I already have a lot of pops, so I like, and I think more prof would be great.

So that those are the fails of the Backwoods. Okay. You can go from May 8th, ourselves to June 8th and the totally nailing them. So what are you doing differently now? What were the mistakes that you were making at first, this not getting high enough or rotating the sale differently? Or what do you do differently?

Not do you know? Yeah, I was rotating the sale where I would put it behind my back like that. And then I would like, you see how I put it, like behind right there. And now I'm like letting it go under me. And that helps a lot with the rotation. And then I just needed a little more. That was at the Harbor too.

So that was Flatwater and that was pretty flat wide. Like this one, I had a little ramp to make it look so easy. Yeah. Amazing. But yeah. And actually, let's talk a little bit about the this other move the Upland or the upwind 360 or Slaka, and it looks like you're doing these ones now where you rotating them rotating the other way and then flipping her on.

So like first rotating and then doing that, the Flocka move. So can you talk a little bit about that move and how, break it down for us? Yeah. I think with that, that first tweak right there. I do that too. It helps me almost get a faster rotation because I like go and then they just fit, lining up the spring kind of thing.

Yeah. And then it also cause before when I used to do them, I would do them straight, like out of the water. But I've been realizing that it's a lot easier when you jump, wait, and then when you start coming down, then you do it. Okay. So it's like in windsurfing when we do forwards, like sometimes you do you go up first and you stall and then you throw yourself into the rotation.

So maybe it's.

Yeah. So I've been working on that moves too, and I've been pulling off maybe one out of 10 or something like that, but do you have any tips on for me, I always struggled with the landing and the CA the wind coming around and then like what, do you have any tips on that? Yeah, I think what I do is I really try to keep the wing as high as I can, so that it doesn't hit the water and it helps a lot to have the small, the smallest wing that you can be on.

And, yeah, it definitely like with the rotation, it's a lot easier with a smaller wing and then it spins better. And for the landing, yeah. It just like it a whip you around in that last part. And then that'll pull you right up on, back onto the foil.

Have you tried doing this move on, on the, on a wave? Yeah, I've done some on the waves sometimes. Like I can't really get up on foil straight away. What I did on that one. It's hard to do that for me. So most of the time I would do it land and then I would have to like pump and then I would go out the back of the wave, but then I would just go back into it

and trying to figure out too. It looks like he almost pretty much rotating the wing at the very end. Like when you. When your foil already touched the water, like the last part of the rotation, really? Through the wind. Yeah. I liked doing that because since it has a forward momentum, it'll just be straight up onto the foil, like what I did there.

Yeah. It's amazing how you just pull out of it right up on, back on the foil again, without like, when I do that, I don't I do the last part of the rotation almost in the water and while I'm bringing the wing around it and then pump myself back up, but it's almost like I stop new kind of still moving forward on the landing.

So it's pretty, pretty cool. Yeah. That's why, like, when you do the wing rotation for their further, towards the bottom, it'll give you that forward momentum to get back up on the foil. Yeah.

So and what about the wing? Do you have any tips for like how you hold the wing or do you try to have less power in it? Or what I try to do is I tried to, I try to go off of a little chalk or something. And then when I do it, the, I like to do them in holes of wind, like where there's a hole so that you can rotate.

So it's not too, you don't want super strong Gus when you're doing it, right? Yeah. I would rather do like underpowered, not because it's harder to do in super strong winds. I think too, though, his definition of strong lens is really strong because this summer it's been 40, 30 to 40 every single day.

Yeah. Pretty crazy window. Over here on Molly.

Yeah. Yeah. And it's not too, it's like you bringing the wing through the wind after the foil touches down really or after you've already touched the water. Yeah. So it's pretty, pretty late in the move when you actually spin the wing around. Yeah, definitely. It, I liked doing it towards closer to the water.

Because what sometimes, like when they do it above the water, I would just have a bunch of extra time to rotate again or whatever. And then I usually mess up or something. It looks like you almost pump it. It's almost like a pumping thing when you with that. Yeah. And that was the first fact loop I may ever.

So then that looks like a pretty big ramp too. Yeah. I needed a bigger rant, more in the start.

And there were some where I had too big of a ramp where I over-rotated an ate. So what happens when you over-rotate? What happened once was like, I did it and then I like had the perfect landing and then I like landed like that and back flopped and got the wind knocked out of me. I try not to go off of ginormous ramps anymore.

Cause it really hurts land. Yeah. I've seen Zane Schweitzer does them like off of big ways that he'll keep by like really throwing himself backwards and it looks pretty, pretty crazy, but I guess that way you can definitely rotate all the way around. Yeah. I think the bigger, the way of the slower you have to rotate and back when I was first doing them, I would just rotate as fast as I could.

So I did a lot of over rotation. So let's talk a little bit about based more basic stuff for a lot of the people listening are just getting into wing fighting. And then also actually Kevin, maybe you can talk a little bit about your first experiences with four thing with the wind surf board and what are the challenges and so on and any advice you can.

Yeah, I think for me, the, actually for me, I think the wing is almost the easiest platform to learn on because you even when T with like, when I was first towing, because I thought, oh, that's going to be the easiest you're in control. You're in the jetski driver is in control. Like you just want to let go a little bit, slow down a little bit with the wing.

You can just let it out where, if you're on a, behind a boat or whatever, it takes a lot of coordination, especially in the swells, like maybe on a Flatwater it's different, but I was always learning on the waves and no for me, the wind surfers, it's pretty fun going back and forth and stuff.

Actually the other day we were out at . Yeah. I heard about him doing backflips. So I'm like, Aw show and how to do a back flip with the Windsor for, so doing that. And it's interesting to watch his rotations and stuff, and there's just so much lift with those boils. If you get them in the right, right way, you can just flip off with nothing.

So the wind surfer. Yeah, it feels to me when I'm doing it on the winter, it feels super low, but then you see a picture of it and maybe it's cause you're 36 inches off the water when you start or something, but it looks high. Yeah. It definitely a lot lower than what it is. Yeah. Even like your shots, you're going pretty dang.

Huh? Yeah. It feels like I'm probably going four feet.

Yeah. I think for, it's pretty fun how the foil can work through all the different sports, whether it's surfing or stand up. I think that's how my dad got into the foiling is he was doing standup paddling. And then, you paddle down tile, you get a little ride, his little glide, and then you're done unless you're Zane's weights or something back out in circles and stuff.

You can pump out. Yeah. That's like a nice thing that I like about profiling is you can surf the wave in, it helps a lot with footsteps, but you can surf the wave, like you're surfing regularly, but then when you kick out, you don't have to paddle all the way out. You can just pump to the next wave or pumped back out to the lineup.

You should see this kid's legs. They're like, look at his muscles. They're like math for 11 year old was down the beach. And, he comes in and he's got six pack, abs muscles ripped off. And you're like, dude, what are you doing? And just winging every day and using those muscles. That's great. So you said Kevin, you're just starting to wing foil.

Yeah, I Do it, I did it with when my dad was down there for his birthday and stuff, but it's pretty fun. And the different spots, like in Baja where I was, it was perfect for winging, like a slower fatter wave, so you're get that cruisy feel. And like you said, you don't have to paddle back out, which is nice with the wing.

If you're not a super oil back out person, which I'm not, but yeah. And just learning a little bit it's always fun to just different sports and stuff. And, I can go out and back and do tiny jumps, but that's about it. I think, I think having a windsurfing background helps a lot with wing foiling.

You know what I mean? Because the wing handling is very similar. You do have to learn how to control the height of the wing. Cause that's, windsurfer it's attached to your board, so you just can cheat in and out. But this is like a three dimensional thing where you have to actually control the direction of the wing too.

That's what I was thinking about one time with the wind surfer. If you can have those old wind weapons attached to the board twisted up, I wonder how it'd be fun to get one of those nowadays and see how it works, maybe that, it might just be some different, but it'd be cool to try one or see what it is.

And, I was always thinking maybe because that's the hardest part is once you're on a Wade, you need to get rid of the power. If you have to smallest sale, you can barely get on the foil and. I dunno, the wind surfing with the waves is hard on the foil, I think. But again, I just probably need to do it more.

And

As going to ask you Kayden on your wing, it looks like you have like one of your straps is, or the handles is like a rigid handle in the back. Is that right? Or I don't, let me see if I have a closer video where it shows

it's like a boom as the back one. And I feel like that's nice because you can move your hand, like whatever way you want. And it's nice for the three sixties and stuff. Cause sometimes you come down and like you're not in the perfect place. And you need to slide your hand forward, slide it back,

but it, so it's just attached with like nylon straps or something though, or

it's attached with just fabric that.

Yeah. So it still moves around quite a bit. Yeah. I keep thinking it would be nice to have like rigid handles that are just give you really direct control of the wing, where they don't flop around at all. But yeah, that's what I wish think that's what I'm trying to work on right now.

It's like making some more rigid handles. Yeah. W gash is actually coming out with they're scrapping the boot. They're making that gloom thing basically, but they're having it on with plastic. They're mounting it on, basically. Yeah. And then they're gonna put up carbon pipe in it and it only gets super rigid.

Right now he's PTC wing. It's called it's psych New Zealand company that makes wings. And that's kinda my favorite right now. Do you do the blue planet boards or yeah. We make pho foil boards and Wingfield boards. We've been doing that for quite a while now. And yeah, those are good.

Are they made on a wahoo or no we we make prototypes on Oahu. The production is in China. I've been looking into making boards here, but it's just so expensive. Just the overhead and the labor costs and stuff like that. It's and then yeah, regulations and permitting and all that kind of stuff.

It's a nightmare. So I haven't made that step, but on Molly, I guess the cannery is a pretty cool place. Cause there's so much innovation coming out of there. Yeah. It's pretty wild. It just, now he seems to breed that in innovation of stuff, different athletes and different, from surfing the wind surfing to stand up paddling and it's wild to, to me, like how kind of wind surfing gets a shuffled under the rug.

90% of all the athletes from the last 20 years have come from wind surfing, layered rush Randall, all these guys, all wind surf, and whether it's their kids or whatnot, it's Alex amazing wind surfer, all and all the brands too are from Windsor thing, and the, and there's a lot of the technology as well. With, I think surfing's has been so stuck in, the polyester construction and thruster tens and whatever they get, it's just not a lot of innovation happening. And then when windsurfing came around, everybody was like trying so many different things and the whole composite construction and making boards later and stronger and all that kind of stuff.

That all came from wind surfing not from surfing really. I think too it feels like wind surfers are more techie than surfing maybe. Maybe it's changing a little bit now, and the foil that's half the reason I don't really love the foiling is because for, 25 years, I was just tinkering with wind surfing stuff.

And, it was pretty D when you're at the top level, couple of millimeters here and there, it makes a huge difference. So to come and start tinkering with a foil, I don't, it's a lot of work for me. So it's just. It's nice to come and you go out on the dad's stuff, it's all trimmed.

Perfect. You just hop on it and go, and it works. And you're not like, oh, this change this. Now you're talking about millimeters and wind surfing. I think on the foil, it's even more, it's like micro millimeters. Yeah. You guys have so much less surface area in the water and like any little change makes the noticeable difference.

Like even a half a degree angle in your tailwind can be noticed or whatnot. So it's pretty amazing

if you do it any skinnier, it'll make it faster and better. I don't like slower. So do you, so Kayden, do you play around with that? Do you tend to play around with your first setup? Kevin was saying you liked it when you find something that you like, or that works. You just tried to keep the same thing.

Now that like foils are getting so new technology and stuff, I've been trying a lot of stuff and I'm liking so much more stuff. And all these new foils that are coming out or Alex will bring him down, like a couple of different foils, like custom wants to try. And it's probably opening his mind a little bit, just to you just gotta try it, so I was learning a lot about Lyft and all that stuff. So it's all the homeschool year was also foil homeschool year. Yeah. Cool. I mean that, that's definitely a pretty high tech stuff that everyone's working on. I interviewed Kandel while too, and he's really into like foil design and computer design.

And all that engineering type stuff I've been totaling in with my tow partners, Jason Polk, also another great. And we've been using cane stuff for the toe foiling. Again, Jason and I were just out there just Muppets, just like why can't we do this? Why can't we do this? Cause we, we're okay.

Talented people and we'd be sharing it and we'd be like, oh, this doesn't work. We'd move it. Two inches didn't work. And we had Kane come out with one of his foils and we took it out and he's just boom gets it set up. And they're like, oh, there you go. Yeah, hold on.

Something, two inches is probably like way too much, right? Yeah. We burned not clean. I got so frustrated with it, cause you're, especially on the toe in with the bigger ways that it's, yeah. The fi I'm not going in huge waves, you're going down that way so fast and it's pretty scary when the cane stuff is really good.

Cause he, he's on it and he's, making custom foils up at the cannery up here and he knows what he's doing. So it's pretty nice to have a little bit more stability and for what we're doing, probably the production stuff. Isn't really, there's not many people that are towing with foils, out in Maui stuff.

It's kinda cool to have him do some stuff with us. Okay. What something I always like to ask everyone is how much of your skills is like just natural talent that you have, naturally, and how much of it is, practice time on the water training. And I think Katie and I are very opposite in that answer where I for me, I'd take repetition.

Like my windsurfing day is I was out there every day, any condition whatsoever, just hammering on it and that was what I think separated or put me into, world title scene is that I was like one of the first guys to my brother and I, and, we had a little group of people and we were the first guys to take it seriously.

Like weren't going out partying weren't you know? Oh, it doesn't look good. We're out there every day, any conditions? Cold, stormy, oh, here comes a storm and Mally, which we don't get, oh, we're going to go chain for when we're in Europe. And we're in this miserable conditions we're out there.

So we're he starts one thing even as mountain biking, when he was like four years old, he was like doing these huge jumps down the hill and he won't do it for two months and then I'll be better than me. And I'm like how did you do that? You didn't have even written your bike in six months.

Yeah. I can think I have read with my team. Yeah. I know we have this cool mountain bike up in McWell forest, then you flow trail down. And I remember taking him up there and just this little tiny kid, just sending all the money. And maybe that's why you enjoyed the ring. Cause you get to jump so high.

Yeah. Yeah. But even then with his backflip, you saw on may 60, tried it the first time and then on May 12th, he's landing up and now he's boosting huge stuff, so yeah. So yeah. But maybe you can answer it on Kayden. Like how do you feel? Is it talent or practice? My one talent that helps with everything that I do what's on the water is I would say I have pretty good balance.

And that helps me with a lot of stuff. Yeah. I think too, he's got a trampoline, every kid who has a trampoline, it's pretty cool because you can do those backflips and. I remember you had a skateboard with straps on it, so you can visualize what do you think? Oh, cool. Yeah. I always think of balance as not something that you're naturally born with really, but it's something you can practice, right?

So if you doing all that, if you're doing sports all the time, that require you to have good balance, your balance is going to naturally get better. And then that helps you with everything you do probably, right? Yeah. It's definitely if I didn't have good balance, I doubt I would be worried I'm down.

What about visualization or like doing moves in your head? Do you do that? Do you try to visualize it before you get in the water? For me, I like try them in the water, like just with my weighing and without my board, I would just like visualize. Pulling the wing backwards. And then I did some, I do some flips on my trampoline, like with my hands doing the back flip and that helped me so much.

Oh, you know what else I saw him do? It's pretty cool. Is winging with the one wheel that looks like a good thing for beginners on a one wheel

for that. You just, but you get the feel of the wing. And then

that's interesting. Baltz Mueller was saying the same thing. He was practicing his backflips on the trampoline before he was doing them on the water. Just to figure out the wing. Because that's pretty tricky. Cause you can really kinda get back winded or falling on top of the wing. That's the tricky parts.

I bet I didn't take the wing on a trampoline, but I feel like it would definitely help with taking, knowing I'm a trampoline on a bigger trampoline. Cause mine's a lot smaller. It would be a lot easier than doing them with the foil, like straightaway and then landing on top of the way.

Like my friend tried them straight away with not really knowing how to do a back flip on the trampoline and then he just couldn't get that flip dialed in. Now he knows how to do it on the trampoline, so he'll be landing. So he learned that, oh, he learned it on the trampoline and then he went. So for you Kayden, like what's a typical day, like for you let's say you're doing when you're homeschooling and just like a typical day for you?

Homeschool for me, I would start at nine o'clock. So what time do you get, what time do you wake up? Do you wake up early or do you try to sleep until the last possible moment? Or I wake up at six 30, so I try to wake up early and then I do sometimes I just, I'm super tired and I don't want to get out of bed and I'm just like, okay, I'm going to go back some of the AAA to get my blood flowing.

Then I go do that. And then I have breakfast. And then I sit and do stuff until nine o'clock and then from nine o'clock to 12 o'clock I do my homeschool. And then from my grandpa comes and picks me up at 1230. And then we go to an wing to like four. Then I come back here and clean all my stuff and put it where it goes and then same thing the next day.

But if there's no wind, then I would probably wake up at six and then go prone for a Lang before school conditions are usually better early in the morning, Molly, where the wind kicks in. What about your typical day Kevin? What is your day look like? Pretty similar, except for, without the schooling.

Homeschool. Usually I do a little computer work and see what's happening for the day. Check the conditions if it's, yeah. You have a morning routine. Like when you get up, do you do like exercises? Do you have coffee? Like I exercise my scrolling through the Instagram, wake up and get right on your phone and just look at Instagram.

Yeah, I kinda recently I've been looking for a sailboat. That's been my like focus. I wanna, that's why I was on a wahoo. I was over there checking out boats. I got a slip down at my Elias. I need to get a boat in there. And I I have a van over on the mainland, the sprinter van, and a lot of exploring.

That's like when I like go into Baja so much. Now my dream is to have that sprinter van in the water in a sailboat and kind of checked out the islands, be able to go over to a wahoo and, hopefully get these guys into exploring a little bit more, go over there and be able to, wing and kinda do fun stuff off the boat.

So that's been my focus recently. All right. That's cool. So is this going to be for as a hobby recreationally? Are you also planning to do like charters and stuff like that? Or is it more time? Just the house it's hard right now. Cause for me. Maybe, but it seems like everybody on Maui is making money doing like Turo or this and that.

And then I'm just like, I'm just cruising and I'm like, no, maybe I should do that. That's great. If you can, if you don't need to make money, that's good. To make money. Yeah. Good. So where do you see the future of the sport going? What for wing fighting? And what are your goals like?

What do you hope to do in wink filings, Kayden? I'm hoping to learn how to do a front flip before I'm 12. So when are you turning? 12? August 17th. Okay. Yeah. That's enough time she learned to back slip in one month. So the other day I was down there's this guy dictionary, have you heard of that book?

Yeah, he's doing a wing book. And so I went down to take pictures of of Jeffery and doing that forward thing and Finn and holy smokes. I'll be impressed to see you do that. Cause like we're like you guys were talking about with the the stall when he's doing the spins and stuff, like he goes up and, just goes up and then he kicks it out too and then throws it forward and was just like, whoa, like scary.

Yeah. But I think it does look similar to doing forwards on the windsurfer. It's like you're throwing yourself sideways more than forward. But yeah. Are other people besides Jeffrey and them doing the forwards or yeah. Tetouan is doing it. I was talking to him about that. That was asking him for pointers and he's I don't have any pointers.

I'm just trying to figure it out myself. I don't know yet

on your podcast. Yeah, I interviewed him. I haven't published it yet, so that'll be all probably before your guys, this one goal post. So I always, it takes me a while to edit the footage after I do it all. So yeah, I enjoy interviewing more than the editing process, but cool. So what about D do you think you can Kayden that you're going to do this, as a job that professionally, like making money with wing funding or is it just going to be fun for you?

Or what do you think? I have no idea what it's going to be. It's either I. I don't know. Do you think you're going to try to do any of those events like the world? What is it called? The world furthering tour or whatever they having those world championship events. Yeah. I want to do one here first and see, cause I think they're going to do one over here soon, or I don't know, but they're supposed to be one this summer for something, but I don't know if it got canceled or whatever, but I want to see how I do and one over here.

I get really good. Then maybe I'll start doing this. I don't know. Isn't there like a full contest on Maui this last weekend? I thought there was like, I donated some prizes for full contest to be here. I heard about it in behind it. And it was just a standard era. Did it prone and stand up. And the second day it was supposed to be wind foiling.

I dunno, you didn't okay. You should have done that. But the level over here, there's quite a few kids that are really ripping, like some of his friends, you're just like so that will be a good if there's a contest here, it will be pretty high level. Yeah, no doubt. I'm always, definitely the epicenter of the progression.

So it's pretty wild him grow up here. Like we grew up on this tiny lake in the middle of California. I always say to my brother, I'm like, man, just imagine if we had this set up we're kids, we were done with it when it turned out to be pretty good. I think, I think one of the, what you guys had was that sibling rivalry, right?

So like brothers, two brothers, you guys trying to do each other. So you always pushing each other. And I think that's also very valuable, I think, in sports, right? Yeah, for sure. That was like a hundred percent. That's for sure we were. We were best friends. We trained together, we lived together, we pushed each other, when we were young, he'd do a move and then I'd be like, oh, I can do that.

And then he'd be like, oh, I can't let my little brother do it so better than me. So he'd push it. And now one cool story we had was when you were, he was 16, he just got his driver's license and I was 13 and 14 and my parents let us to take our van. My dad's. We had a Windsor fan. It, let us take it from Southern California, drive all the way up to the Gorge, just the two of us and spend a month up in hood river, just wind surfing and having fun.

And I'm like, I couldn't imagine sending him. You're going to be like that. He has a younger brother too, obviously, so well, but he's right. Maybe when you can drive it, you can do stuff like that. Yeah. But still, that was like one of the best summers ever. So it's pretty wild that looking back like that my parents let a 16 year old and 13 year old drives, what is it?

Thousand miles by themselves. And it's pretty fun. But we had, we learned a lot and we had a lot of fun. Is your, is Matt older than you? Or younger? Older? Yeah. Oh, so you were not even 16 yet. You were like 14 or 15 or how old are you? I was like, that's cool. And then you were friends around that, her old, like all our lives.

We've been around older people, because windsurfers are old, but like our best friends were our parents growing up because they wanted to win. Sir, my parents are super young there. My dad just turned 70, I think. He was when we were 15, he, he was only 35 or whatever.

I miss doing the mapping now, but, so he was super young and we wanted to go wind surfing. And so we were like, we want on the weekends at school, we'd rather hang out with my parents, then go party or whatever. It's pretty cool. Okay. I have a question for both of you guys. So for me personally, and I know this happens a lot of people, like some days you're on the water and everything's just like every you're totally in tune with your gear and the conditions and everything's working, you can pull off all kinds of moves and you're just in the zone.

And then the next day, sometimes you'll go out in the same kind of conditions with the same kind of gear, but like everything, you're just like a kook and you keep falling in and nothing's really working. So how, and it seems like it's not necessarily like the conditions or the equipment.

It's more like your state of mind. So is there any, anything that you do to get into that state of mind, or do you have any pointers on how to avoid being that kook, or changing your mindset from being a cook, to being in the zone? For me, I feel like I try to always be in the zone because every time that I'm feeling like I don't want to, I'm just not in the mood or I don't really want to go I'm super tired.

Then I would just I wouldn't try any crazy tricks or whatever, or I would just not go winging that day. But the times that I do go in and I'm just not in that state of mind, I just I don't know. I land one move that's hard to do. And then I get fired up and I'm like, okay, now I'm good. Again, like that's I feel so sometimes you get into the zone while you're doing it.

Like kind of thing, but yeah. And what about you, Kevin? Sometimes when you, that, that makes sense that not just don't go out when you're not, when you're not feeling it, but like sometimes if you're competing you don't have that choice. Like you're up and you got to go and is there a way you can switch from, how do you switch on that, getting into, I dunno, I wonder if that's like something I think that was one of my strong points competing is as I was like, never really the best guy, but I was always just there, and just keeping that mentality of just being steady and, going, performing at a level all the time.

That's high and. There's those certain moments where you're in the zone, for sure. You always talk about it, you hear about it. And then, in your there's certain moments where throughout my career, where I was like, oh, man is what was he in conscious almost, I was just going through it.

And that's hard to, it's hard to get into that, but, just happens, but I think just the more you train, the more confident you be, you are. And so I think that kinda just, for me, it was always the training and just going out there all conditions and always pushing yourself.

I think Caden's a little more smart, smarter than I am he like when he's not feeling it, it just doesn't go well, I've always pushed through, don't be a whiner. Just go. Yeah, that makes sense. I know some people are, it seems like some people are actually better when they're competing.

Like they get, they like, it pushes them to perform even at a higher level. Would you say you're like that, like we're when you're competing, you're actually better than when you're just practicing. I would say so. Yeah, for sure. For me, I was like, yeah, like I said, never really the like wildest one out there, but then when it came to game time, I would would be able to, land all my moves and my strategy was just do the moves that you can make.

And, let the other people fall by the wayside. A lot of times these, I go up against these kids and they just be, sending it huge, which is cool, but then they would land it. And then I just do my little job and advanced a lot of times.

Okay. So like a little bit playing it safe and doing the things, you can do and not trying to do crazy stuff that you don't really have mastered. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. That makes sense. Okay. Kayden, would you say you're obsessed with foiling or is it just a hobby for you or would you say that obsessed and addicted to it or not really?

I'm definitely obsessed with, yeah. So what is it about foiling that makes it so addicted. It just feels like you're flying basically. And that's like with surfing, it's really hard to get into the air, but, and when you do get an air, you're only in the air for a second, but, and then it was winging.

It's just like when ever you're up on foil, it feels like you're flying. And then when you're in the air, you're also flying. So it's like, all right, I'm up on the foil? Probably I'm like in the air on foil, probably like 98% of the time. And then surfing I'm in the air, like 0.5% of the time. Yeah. What about prone foiling though?

Even that you're on the foil a lot less than when you're winging for it. Yeah, but I love riding waves, like in any sport that has wave riding in it. I want to try it. And it's prone flailing. I'm starting to like that more than like when you're in perfect conditions. I like it more than surfing in perfect conditions.

Because you have that glass, you smooth water, those perfect long wave rides. And you can like, when you're really good, like Kailani and Zane and all those people, you're up on the foil, like 50% of the time pumping around, and that's what I want to get to that level. I can pump out and touch like 15 waves before I get tired, but I get tired after five.

So yeah, pumping back out is takes a lot of energy. I can't even imagine 15 ways, maybe two ways. That's pretty much it for me.

That's awesome. So other hobbies and cross training and stuff, I guess you do mountain biking. Anything else you guys do for like when it's not, when you're not in the water, I guess not in the water. I have a one wheel and that helps with my balance and with the wing sometimes. Go and practice my tricks.

And it's like a lot harder when you're on land than when you're in the water on the wing. So it definitely helps me like, get the moves dialed. And then I tried to go on the biggest wing that I can be on when I'm on land so that I can practice doing the bigger way. And then once I get like good at that, then with smaller wings, like it makes it so much easier because you feel like you can, you're spin super fast.

And then that's like my biggest, my favorite thing to do on land is probably one wheeling and trampoline.

All right. It's a question for both of you guys. So during the pandemic, a lot of people felt isolated and the kinda lonely or depressed whatever anxious being at home, being stuck at home. And I know for us, it's always easier to be like, ah, just go in the water and have fun and everything's fine, but let's say you, you're stuck inside and you can't go on the water or you can't go outside.

What do you do to if you have an off day or if you're not feeling great, like what do you do to lift your spirits or to stay positive? On those days where it's like horrible for any sport and you just don't want to move or whatever. I usually like. Watch some winging videos of like new moves that I want to try.

And then I like stop them and watch them over and over again. I see how they do it and then I want to do it like that. And then sometimes I play like board games, like monopoly. I love monopoly. It's it's fun. Thank you, Kevin. I guess a little computer time would probably be, I don't have, I don't have TV in my house, so not really a big TV watcher, but yeah, I dunno.

We're so we've, it's bad to say, but for us on Maui, it's been just like the, I dunno, the best year ever having COVID, it was. So much fun, like all of the spots that normally are actually now it's back to normal, but like we'd go to twin falls, which is this little waterfall and you go there now there's like parking directors, like telling you where to park it's fault, blah, blah, blah.

During COVID you'd just go out there. There's insane waterfall and be like two people, one person. And for me it was like probably the, it was the best year I've ever had on my, after 30 years. So you got to, I stayed here during the summertime where normally I go to hood river, to around in my band and explore.

I stayed here on Maui and it's forced me to explore my backyard and there's so many cool spots out there, like just hidden spots, different spots. And I would take my E I'm an E biker. I love biking and I would just ride every day. I went out there so many times I can't even count. And I would just ride my bike and explore and explore and go to different waterfalls and different things.

And so for me, the COVID was just. Unbelievable is awesome. I totally agree. Yeah. The thing about like that, the thing that I missed about traveling really was the adventure of seeing new things or exploring and things, but you really don't have to go that far to explore it and you can, yeah, you can go some, just go on a trail that you've never been on and it's oh wow, this is cool.

So you can have an adventure without getting on a plane and sitting on a plane for 12 hours or whatever, you don't really have to go that far. And you're on a Waldo to like some, when like you would drive during rush hour and there's no cars on the freeways.

Like what's going on there. I love this, get somewhere in 10 minutes that would take 45 minutes on a normal day. And also, I think it kinda like over here too, a lot of people are like, do, why do we really need 30,000 people arriving every day? Maybe $10 or enough, but I guess our economy is pretty dependent on tourism, but it sure is nice to have a little bit less traffic and less people everywhere and stuff like that.

For sure. Here, I always said it's like the whole world was playing musical chairs of w where to go. And we won the game, like being in Hawaii is like, we're one that is pretty safe, I would say. And for two is the best place in the world to be this last year. As far as everybody's pretty healthy.

And we were, I would say the rules were very relaxed compared to my friends in Europe, so it was pretty, pretty awesome spot to hunker down and and enjoy what the islands have to offer. Cool. So Caden, if somebody asks you what foiling is like, and they've never foiled, like how do you explain that sensation of flying a foil?

Why would you say it's like the fly you're going to fly though? What if somebody does not to fly? Like just, it feels like once you get up on the foil, it's like the first time that you get up on the foil whinging, it's there's nothing else. Like it. Cause it's you the wing board and the toilet, and you're just floating across the water.

It feels but those are the really good days for doing it in those flat water and not super strong ones. So what's it like when the wind is super strong, then it's a little bit more hectic, some nights for me, it's like I'm holding on for dear life, but then, it definitely balances out because there's spots on Maori where you can go, like when there's really light wind, there usually there's usually enough wind to get up on foil in Maui, like every day.

Yeah. That's crazy. You lucky for sure. So who else should I interview on this? On the blue planet show about wing filing? Who do you think I should talk to? Alex started like the whole surf foiling thing. So I think that would be cool. Cause I just read this interview thing that someone typed out on a website and it was really cool to learn about all that stuff.

So yeah. Yeah. I already Alex actually to be on the show, but he's been busy. So he said when he has some time, you'll let me know. Maybe you can tell him that he should get on the show. Anyone else you'd recommend talking to?

What about Annie? Have you had her on there? I had any record on there right yet on the show. I'm trying to, obviously I'm trying to get Jeffrey Spencer Kailani. I don't know. Been able to get them on the show. They're busy, but I had seen Zane Schweitzer at Allen kid is mark Rapa horse. A bunch of people from Mali.

There's a couple of cool guys on, on the mainland. Like Brian , he's one of the, he's a good winger and, pioneered a lot of stuff in California with the wind surfing. And now he's doing winging and he's into photography and video and he made all those used Houston make like side off video with doing all the, how tos and stuff like that.

And then he switched to kiting and now he's in the wings. Okay, okay. Off slide on video. You can find them through that somehow. Okay, cool. All right. So yeah, that was awesome. So what are you goals with with your YouTube channel? Kevin? Just for fun. This kid loves that. I said D LA he's it's not called a B log.

And I'm like, yeah, I knew that. I knew that, but I kinda like the logs better than blog anyways. So yeah. He's yep. I'm doing my new V log out here, guys in Mexico.

But I think, I've been on YouTube for like over 10 years or, time. And it's I think the main thing is just being consistent, like posting on a regular basis, like maybe once a week or even once a month or whatever, but just always coming out with new stuff and not, that's the key, I think just then people start following you and once you have subscribers and your videos get more views right away, and then that's how you build limit 10, but it takes years mean really it's hard for me cause I just see on Maui, it's just the same thing, for years and years, but that's where it cool.

The log is, you can show your personality and different stuff and it's not just like this beautiful imagery, I'm I've been in the making videos for awhile and stuff. So I get if I don't do it like to perfection, a lot of times like a nice, like I love John's stuff.

View or whatever, and it's pretty awesome. So this is just, thrown together a little bit more rough and stuff, and trying to be funny a little bit too and not take it so seriously. So this jacket is classic. It's like some kind of pimp jacket, or do you get that truth to that?

As I was going to burning, man, and then I got all this stuff in my van and so I was like, oh, I might as well busted out with this jacket and stuff. So it's pretty great outfit of it.

Yeah. For me from like Instagram stuff, I post something like every week, but it's hard to do it consistently. Yeah, but that's what sponsors want to see too. Your sponsors when see your social media presence and all that kind of stuff. And then his parents probably don't want them on social media as well.

So yeah. Yeah. They're like, don't be like Kevin and scroll your Instagram. First thing in the morning, you wake up right off the bat. First thing in the morning, Instagrams. That's funny. So is there any anyone you want to thank for their support in your sports? For me, I would think everyone at go for taboo and gastrocs and burn helmets and Matt at end point too.

So all those people. So much with my winging and then my grandpa, my dad, him professional photographer and yeah. Everyone. So amped on the new wings and it's super, it's great to have all these people supporting. Yeah. You're lucky you got your grandpa taking you down to the beach. Cause it'd be pretty hard to do that without having someone drive you, right?

Yeah. It will be a long walk. What about you, Kevin? Yeah, same similar thing. Like my, my brother probably was my biggest influence and help, getting to where I was and my, my mom and dad for sure. But it's been an amazing career for me. Still even to this day, still in the industry and still having fun.

So yeah through Caden, I wrote to Alex for that Bob video, I'm like, Hey, do you think I can borrow a toilet just to go down there and play around on it. So as cool. And he's yeah, no problem. Here you go, blah, blah, blah. And probably Caden was working with them. I probably wouldn't have even thought about it.

It's cool to have somebody that supports him and, Alex has been, I would say is pretty cool with you, like helping them out. And even like you were saying that the homeschool learning that, oh, a little shit, I'm here. What that does to the water and stuff. He's been he's been pretty cool with with him, for sure.

Yeah. I mean that, like foiling is definitely an aeronautical engineering. You're really, if you figure out how things work on the floor, that's pretty complex stuff. And a lot of it's just theory too. Like the theory of how the foil generates lift is actually not as just a theory, right?

It's not like a proven thing, is it the displacement? Is it the pressure difference? Is it, like how did the lift is actually created? It's not like a clear, easy answer, right? Yeah, the speed of the water moving over either surface and stuff like that. So pretty interesting stuff for sure.

So yeah, maybe you can study more about that. Yeah, man. So it seems like, wind surfing seems to be I guess when kiting came out, they said windsurfing was canceled or whatever, but there's still hardcore windsurfing, Siemens, stuff like that, but it seems like now winging is taking over from both cutting and windsurfing.

I mean the, just the hype about is crazy. Yeah. How do you see windsurfing going in the future? Servings just takes a beating. Like every time a new sport comes out, they're like but you still get those hardcore guys. And one of the, one of the awesome things about when surfing.

Falling by the wayside is you can go downhill, keep it in there. The Mecca is like 35, 40 guys out there or surfing. I don't even go surfing because I hate all the crowds and there's a hundred people out and all this stuff. So yeah, that's all about windsurfing. You go down there and, anywhere in the world, basically it's pretty uncrowded compared to a surf spot.

As far as the industry goes, it's definitely, not a thriving industry, lot of the brands have taken up the weaning and so they're still doing well, but it's still an amazing sport that you never get tired of because you can never master it. I feel like with the kiting, I love kiting and the feeling of it, but I can see too after, If I get better at it, I could probably get bored with it.

We're wind surfing. You're just, you're always trying to learn that, whatever. Yeah. I wonder if winning is like that, where the progression is so fast that you eventually get bored with it. I don't know. It seems like you can always learn new stuff too when you're right. Like we're just in the very beginning.

Are there any crazy moves that you've thought of other than the Ford loop like that you want to try or learn? Yeah, I have I don't think anyone's ever done it yet, but I want to pull the board off my heat with the straps and hold it in my hand. You know how they do that and then put it back on my feet, but that's pretty impossible.

So I wanted to, I want to do one of those before I want to try, because that means you would have to hold your wing with one hat and then hold the board with the other hat and do yeah you have to have a middle handle where you can hold the wing with one hat and it's balanced. Maybe that could like, with the boom on the dash grads, there's like this certain spot, like right at the front of the handle where you can hold it and you can just one hand, like the whole way.

Yeah. I've gotten that dial next. I just have to I want to start doing like the one footers, like getting them super dialed. I have them pretty good. He actually got a really cool shot of me doing one, not on purpose. Let's do it. That sounds like a good way to really hurt your son, your ankles or whatever.

You have to be careful with that. Yeah. You can recover quickly. But have you Kevin, have you ever hurt yourself and the sweatshops or the ankles and stuff like that? I broke my foot one time getting stuck in the strap. It's yeah. But other than that

major injuries you had in your career, then my brother, I saved those all for him. Cause he was he? Yeah. He like totally broke his leg in half and then he saved him.

Is in Bali is out there and we were jumping and he just snapped his leg in half is narrowly rescue them in and stuff and then had to fly home. Luckily there was a plane there, so pretty bad, but breaking, taking it, overall water sports are pretty safe, like compared to like skateboarding or even mountain biking, cause if you do fall on hard on a hard surface, then you're much more likely to hurt yourself. Like professional skateboarders usually have 20 broken bones by the time you're age. Or motocross, those guys like all the presser first, they only have it's rare for a surfer to break like a bone.

Doing turns. And then I don't, I haven't heard of a winger breaking a bone yet, but I'm sure there's been some bruises. There's a lot of bruises. Yeah.

People even break their ribs, descent, falling on a standup paddle board and stuff like that. Yeah. I'm sure there's stuff that stuff happens all the time, but but yeah it's relatively safe, all right. And anything else you want to share with people that are still listening? Like I always say by the, by this time only about 5% of the people who click on the video, I actually still watching now.

So it's a very elite group of people now that are still listening. Do you have a special message for them? My grandpa's probably going to be one of them. Yeah. I'm sure you will be watching.

Basically all the ones that you've done and he's always like telling me stories like, oh, you got to listen to this. Oh, this

so and and he's always watching them all the way through, so I'm sure he'll be on it right now.

Yeah. Right on. Thanks for having us is fun. Good experience for the kid to be on live TV, so yeah. It's not quite TV it's YouTube, but yeah. How do you feel about the community of wink fighting? Is it different than like other, like surfing or other sports that you do wind surfing?

I think it's great. I'm not a huge fan of the surf community so much, there's a couple of cool. Couple of cool people, but in general it feels like the wind community. It's a little bit more positive and happy to help out, where the surf community gets a little territorial.

So for me, I enjoy seeing him in the wind community. And how often is, good surfers go in and help him some kid out oh, they do Ian Walsh is awesome and Kailani, those guys are amazing for the community, but they're few and far between where I feel like everybody, when they see him do a big air, they're stoked for him, so I think, yeah, like I feel like with all the wing foiling people, there's 1% of the people that aren't always absolutely stoked to the, after. Yeah. It's weird to see someone with a scowl on their face, unless yeah, because they're so worried. Their scowl is like yeah. And getting started for as it can be pretty challenging. I think for a lot of people it's not an easy sport to get right away, but I guess for you, it was not fair everybody. Yeah. I think once you get up on that, the foil, that one time they hear hooked forever.

That's how I felt. Yeah. So when people, like when strangers come up on the beach to you, like that has never foiled before and they're like, what is that? What are you doing? Or like what's the most common question that people ask you. How do you do that? Yeah. Yeah. It seems like the question I get a lot is like, how much does that cost?

Like they always want to know how much everything costs and yeah, it's not an easy answer, but it's pretty expensive. Yeah. I think too, everything's so new that there's not like use gear so much, so when people ask you, how do you do that? What do you tell them? I just explain it.

They're mostly like, there are people that Windsor or kite and they always like they want to learn a new sport or something and I'm like I don't really know how I do it. And then I just tell them once you learn it, you're hooked. So I'm very bad at explaining stuff. Yeah. Kayden, I guess when Kailani first posted I dunno, do you remember that when Kailani posted on social media, when he was like foiling on a big race for downgoing downwind on a Molly co-run or something like that, sweating on this huge long race board, do you remember watching those videos?

That was probably like three or four years ago. Yeah. I think the first video I watched the foiling from was from Laird Hamilton. Oh yeah. Towing. Yeah. Tell foil. He got the like snowboard boots on Very old back then. And then I saw some of Kai doing downwinders on January MIS like Nash oil wards.

And then now he's doing prone foiling downwinders on a four foot board just gets up on swells that are even breaking it's pretty mind blowing and yeah. Have you done any of that downwind foiling? Have you tried that? And do you do that? I have that one down winder. The other one that we tried, it didn't go as planned, but I'm planning on doing a bunch this summer.

It was winter and it was always perfect for way Redding and the waves were too big to do a downwind, their windows, good wind for it. So it was always either like weighing foiling and the waves and prom foiling early in the morning and surfing in the afternoon. Yeah. There's quite a few guys here doing downwinders on prone boards and they usually, they catch it, they catch the little whitewater waves closer to shore, and then they pump out and then they go, did they do a dominant or just on their short board?

And if they fall, then they have to paddle all the way back in and try to catch another wave, because usually over here it's not windy enough for the wind Winslow. Isn't big enough to catch it on a prone board. But. Pretty scary. Sometimes they end up being like two miles out and then they have to paddle in on the tiny prone board.

And it's not a lot of fun. That to me, that doesn't seem that exciting. I'd rather take a wing with me or a paddle or have a jet ski or boat with you that can tell you back into the next one. That's like my first my first try we're pronoun winder. I think that's what I'm going to do. Jet ski alongside.

Cause my friend just got a, his dad just got a jet ski. Nice. Then he could be a company. Both of you guys, maybe. IBM. Yeah. So pronouns too. And I think if the worst case scenario would be like, we just have to go in. At the next stop, but it would be nice because he can just tell you back up on the floor, right?

Yeah. That makes it a lot easier. Plus, he can also tell me guys, but then stuff like that, we have more footage for Instagram. Yeah. And he's a, like a professional photographer oh, that's a plus. Perfect. Awesome. All right. You guys thank you so much for your time. Really appreciate it.

And keep posting on Instagram, cadence. Those cool moves. Inspirational. Yeah. And make sure you follow up. Yeah, I'm sure you have a bright future as a wing further or whatever you decide to do with your life. And that's awesome. And Kevin, thank you too. And keep posting on YouTube. Try to do it regularly enough.

Okay. Right on. Thanks for having us. And that was fun. Yeah. And then maybe in a year or so I'll hit you up again and we'll talk some more about what's new when you're 12 years old or almost 13. Huh? Just him on his own then. Cause then he's going to be doing such mindblowing things.

I won't even understand them. Yeah. But if you're getting into wink, filing a little bit, you'll have some stuff to talk about as well. Cool. Cause most of the people that are listening to this podcast, they're not at your level. They're more at my level but it's cool. It's inspirational to watch those moves you do, and just keep progressing and show us how it's done. Thank you. All right, guys. Have a great day. Okay, bye. Okay, there you go. On another episode of the blue planet show. Thanks so much for watching the whole thing. As I'm making this show for you, the people who watched the whole thing and enjoy every minute of it and for Jayden's grandpa.

And I just wanted to let you know too, like every Wednesday morning, I'm doing a live show now on YouTube. So anybody can listen in on the live show. Post comments is like a live comment feed. So you can make a comment. Let me know where you're watching, from what time it is and stuff like that. It's always cool to see that people are watching it.

And of course, if you have any question. Just throw out your question. It's more fun to have a conversation with people than to sit and speak with the camera. So I'm enjoying that. So every Wednesday at 7:00 AM, it's the blue planet live show and go over some news. Talk about questions I've had on YouTube from other people that have asked questions that are too hard to answer quickly.

So then I just answered them on that live show. And then any other questions that come in during the show, I'll answer them. Hope you can join me next Wednesday at 7:00 AM. Wait time on the blue climate live show. Hope you enjoyed this show. Please give it a thumbs up if you liked it and so much for watching everything and I'll see you on the water a little hot.

Damien Leroy and Gwen Le Tutour Blue Planet Show wing foil interview #13

Damien Leroy and Gwen Le Tutour have been on a roll, posting two great instructional videos per week and helping lots of people getting started in the sport.  They are humble but are clearly exceptional humans and motivated by a desire to help people.

Interview transcript:

Hello friends. It's Robert Stehlik. Welcome to another episode of the blue planet show. in today's show. I'm interviewing Damien Leroy and Gwen Le Tutour.  We talked about their background, how they got into watersports, wing foil technique and equipment, what inspires them, and how they love to share their stoke with others, watch it here on YouTube.

Or you can listen to it as an audio only podcast, just search for "Blue Planet Show" in your favorite podcast app. Today is June 19th, 2021. And this month you've been posting two videos. Every day. One video is part of our video contest and one of our blue planet videos. So I hope you can join us for the daily videos contest and our blue planet daily videos.

We're going to decide the contest winner on August 14th with a $2,000 price. So to enter, please check out the link below. And send it to your submission. Today's guest Damien, and when are amazing human beings, they're very humble, but I'm stoked to have him on the show. If you've winged foiled at all.

You've probably seen some of their great, amazing instructional videos. They do a great service for the sport. And so without further ado, here are Damien and Gwen, Damien and Gwen, welcome to the Blue Planet Show. Thanks so much for joining me. Let's get started a little bit with your background. Maybe Damien, tell us a little bit about, how, where you grew up and how you got into water sports and all that.

One, thanks so much for having us and we appreciated and how I got into water sports. Technically I've been in water sports since I was like two, but I grew up a ski racer in Colorado, which was on snow a little bit different, but truthfully. Really get involved with the water. Much until my like teens.

I was training in Mount hood, Oregon, and I would go to the Gorge. I'm sorry, I'd go to the coast and boogie board. And I thought surfing was way too hard. And boogie board was like the coolest thing ever. And yeah, it just more from there. I saw kite surfing. I was a big ski racer. And kite surfing was the unknown and yeah, I that's kinda what got me into it was ski racing, seeing it in hood river training at the gore training in Mount hood and visiting the Gorge.

And I had some injuries, he racing and went to Florida, Naples, Florida. And my best friend in Naples was flying one of these kites. And I didn't know him at the time and I walked up and he just handed it over and he's oh, you gotta try this. I was just like, whoa, what is this? And for that's where it started truthfully.

I'd say how long ago was that when you got into college? Ah, man, that's I was 18, so for like close to 21 years ago. Yeah, it was at the beginning. Things were super, truthfully, even in the Gorge, people wouldn't talk about it. It was all wind surfing and you'd see one or two guys, which for sure was probably like Corey Rosler and maybe Lou like visiting or something, but nobody was doing it.

Nobody would do lessons, nobody would talk about it. And and my buddy in Naples happened to buy a kite and just learn on his own and it was awesome. And then I got connected with Cabrina right in the beginning and was just been super blessed ever since. And I've been riding with that company for a long time and just incredible family, credible group of people and just super grateful because I was able to become moral champion and do all sorts of things in the sport.

But more than that, I was able to give back and. Share the knowledge that I've learned throughout my incredible adventures. I'm now back with people, which is the most rewarding thing you can do. And I read that at one point you were kiteboarding world champion. Yeah. I just did everything.

I tried everything so racing and speed and freestyle, big air and way everything. You just do it all when you're just into it. And I won a solemn, a world championship which was racing around some buoys in Spain and yeah, for me, I just always wanted to challenge myself. That was it.

So as long as I could keep challenging myself, I would stay excited about the sport. So it didn't matter what I was doing. I was always excited about it versus I see a lot of people get really hooked on freestyle and then they just burn out and, ends quick. So for me, I was lucky to get into foils and just always keep trying something different.

Cool. So where did you grow up in Colorado? I was born here and Vail, Colorado. And then I moved when I was 10. We had a fly fishing business in Alaska, so it halfway in the summer I would work with my family and Alaska fly fishing, which was a business we own. And then half the summer I would train in Mount hood.

And then I just, we moved everywhere, Idaho, Montana. You name it all over the world, so we're very, it was exciting time and I'm very grateful and it was a neat childhood and hopefully I can share it with my new little baby girl. Awesome. So you have, you're married and have a daughter or? Yeah, I just had a little two month old little nugget and she is just.

I don't know, everybody tells you and I'll say it to everybody out there, you don't know until you have a child, but, I was so driven in all these directions, do all this stuff. And when you have this like thing that you created and for sure there's, lack of sleep, but it's the most beautiful thing you could ever do.

Awesome. Yeah. All right. Thanks for sharing that. What about you, Glen? Can you tell us a little bit about your background? Yeah I grew up in France and in Brittany next to the ocean. So I grew up surfing and wind surfing my browser got me into it. And then when I graduated from college and I was about to travel for work that's when I started kite surfing, because wind surfing was just like, I don't know, but at the time if you were a windsurfer, there was I dunno, you had your community and you maybe didn't really want to transition kiteboarding.

But for me, I had always been very interested in what it took was just like traveling and be like, okay, I need to like, be able to, like travel whiskey and make it a lot more convenient. So that's when I started. Guide thing. And I was working as a Marine engineer, so on ships traveling around the world and I've always been really passionate about the ocean.

And so I really wanted in everything I do, I want to use my skills in a way that easier help people or help the planet. And so as a Marine engineer, I joined a nonprofit called . It's a conservation ocean conservation, nonprofit, and that's when I left France and went to Australia to work on the ships and I met a girl, I didn't speak English at the time.

I'm in a girl, an American girl, she's now my wife. And that's how I ended up in the U S so I never imagined I would come to the us. I remember growing up. Like looking at magazines and how why and all of that. And I was like, just dreaming and and then, like seeing my life now it's like unreal, but everything started all there was a huge shift when I met Damian.

So last year I was living in Idaho and because my wife is from there and I came to Florida to buy a van. And I had been following Damien for awhile on, on Instagram. And I reached out to him. I was into videography, either video, refu business in Idaho. And I was like, Hey do you want to make a video?

I'm going to be here for two days. But I was thinking like this guy is we're a champion. Like he's not going to reply to like me. A video of refer from Idaho, but your dad, he replied, he was like super nice. And he was like, yeah, like for sure let's do it. So we made a video and I edited it and then Damon loved it.

And I was like, okay, I sing there is more to do. So we were really aligned in, in our values in and you, our mission which to me is always using my skills in whatever I do to, to help and to make it like meaningful. So we really connected. And then that's when we started to work on some videos together to really help people, especially, it was the perfect timing when winning was like picking up.

So we were like, let's create something to help people whinging and living their best life. Like we do.

This was back like, so when did you guys meet? That was about a year ago. You said that was last year in September and that's when we met, but then I went back to Idaho and and then came back in three, nine in December. Okay. And so before that, you also did a video videography for like wind surfing, kite surfing, things like that.

Yeah, I would say not I was always just most of my business was just videography and I was taking, anything. Being based in Idaho, I was a lot of, it was not involving what your spot, but when I would travel to Maui I connected with people. I would always try to that was my passion, but when I met Damian, he just took it to the next level.

Yeah,

I think I saw somewhere too, that you were into ultra running and things like that, like during sports, is that right? Yeah. Yeah. I did a lot of things in my life firefighting. I was in the military and I did love stuff. And then running, I took running because I was based like for a while I was like away from the ocean and I needed something to do.

And running was like the most conveniencing because you can do it anywhere. So I picked up running and not being like so passionate about running, but I was like, how can I challenge my. Was running that's pretty much, what I can do right now. And so I did a lot of or like I did a few, like a hundred mile races, which is very challenging, but it's a great experience where you find yourself in a hundred mile race.

For sure. Robert, I have to try him in Glen, ran a hundred miles in firefighting outfit. I'm just letting you know, on a hundred miles in for firefighting. That's hard core. So when you met Damian at you, you had already had a YouTube channel and you've been actively making videos for a while, right?

Or was that kind of a new thing? Yeah, no, I had been oh you talked to. Oh, it was just, both of you, but yeah, it was funny cause yeah, to build that kind of a YouTube following and stuff like that, it takes usually takes more than a year. Just wondering before, before you guys met what were you doing?

And yeah, for me, I, my whole career was obviously competing in the beginning and as a competitor, any young athlete out there, there's always somebody good coming along, so you gotta keep your options open. And for me, I got into sales right away and became a sales rep for some brands. And so I was still competing and working.

So I had a full-time job, but I also was still competing and it was a perfect match because it makes you work hard at what you do. And also you get the reward of playing and doing the best you can do competitive. And YouTube. Yes I had a YouTube channel forever. I had all the social media is you have when you're an athlete, never anything big on YouTube.

I just did it to do it. I loved making videos. It was like a passion of mine, but I wasn't never had enough time and was working probably most of the time. And so I enjoyed capturing unique angles or unique things or building new mounts or capturing something different. That's where my passion was.

And I was lucky to ride for companies like GoPro and connect and do really cool things. But my YouTube thing was never a thing. And When I ran into Gwen, he said it best, and that was our personalities. Like we're in sync. We just were out to help people in my whole entire life has been that and to be able to share and give people their best life and motivate people and get them out and get them up off the couch.

And even if it's the simplest thing, it may not be wing surfing or whatever it may be, but just to motivate people to get out. I think a lot of people think athletes or, wealthy people or whatever it may be. Don't struggle, everybody struggles. And it's a matter of just surrounding yourself with good people and taking the step to get over that problem, whatever it may be drinking or depression or who knows.

And so that, that's what stems this and Gwen is, just the perfect fit of somebody who's same motivation. W we can go to the beach and bang out 10 videos and just have so much information because we're so passionate about it because we know it helps people.

And that's really it. If it helps one person it's good enough for us, and for sure, we'd love to help as many people as we can. And it's a privilege to be able to work for somebody like Gwen. Who's so passionate. And truthfully, I'd say in four months, we. In four months, we created a YouTube channel for sure.

It was, I think my YouTube channel was many years old, but just never did anything with it. And now our goal is to help people and inspire. Yeah, it's awesome. I really like you're all thinking about sharing the love and happiness and stuff like that, it's a pretty big goal, but I think, obviously with that kind of passion and enthusiasm you guys have for it it's great to see that.

And and yeah, I really good quality tutorials too, that you guys put together a nice cinematography and all that stuff. And I've been doing that too for a long time and some help, but obviously you guys are doing kind kinda on a whole nother level. I think like just, really good quality and it's not easy to do, and it's not like you make a ton of money.

Posting free videos on YouTube. Sometimes people think that YouTube is get paid millions of dollars. Like some of the guys do, but not at the level we're at right. It's probably just enough to buy all the gear that you need to buy. think we're probably still in the hole for sure.

But this is a passion project for both of us, for sure. And in Gwen's truly the just incredible, he sees the, he sees it all and puts it together and I'm just OCD and I just can't stop talking. So that's about it. I think what was special when I met Damien I was only like we, we had together for just one weekend when we first met and what kind of what I found like special was like, the man was like, so like connected with everybody at the beach.

And I think that. That's that's when I saw like the potential of of just like being able to help people on, on, on any level, because sometime, if you are like like Damien, like world-class rider world champion, you might be a bit disconnected from the people at the beach, but Damien is so like you go to the beach and the man is always going to be helping anybody.

I think the first weekend, like there was a guy that he was getting into. And had maybe some issue with his foil and Damien went to him and help him getting his full set up. And I'm like, this guy is we're on champion and a rock staff, and he's going to help a guy that, it's, I think to me that was like very special.

And I was like, okay, if we are going to be able to do something like very special and help people and it's going to be meaningful, yeah. Awesome. Yeah. You guys doing a great job, so actually let's talk a little bit about kinda getting into wing foiling and common issues.

People that people have and like tips for beginners, basically, people that want to get into it. They're not really sure what to do. And what do you tell people that are just starting. I would just say, for anybody out there look, everything you, you do in life. That's new, you're unsure.

So like you've got to take a chance and all I'd say is most people that take a chance with this, they actually really enjoy it. And I would say, just get yourself a wing and you can play with it on the beach. You can play with it anywhere. There's wind on land, board, skateboards, snow water, sup you don't need to buy all this stuff right away.

Just get yourself a wing and start playing with it. And to me, your kids can play with it. You can jump off stuff obviously within reason. But yeah, that's kinda, my, my tip is just give it a shot. It's I think you'll be shocked with what can, what doors it can open. That's my first piece of advice.

Yeah. So we're just watching this video here on YouTube. Obviously it's good to just watch a lot of your instructional videos before trying it. But I think a lot of times, yeah, the, one of the mistakes that people make is this going in the water right away before they learn basically to handle the wing and they think they can just do it.

And then, every time you fall in getting back on the board and you get really tired quickly, and then you can't, it's hard to learn that on the water. The more you can figure out the wing handling on land the better. And, but what are some pointers you have? It seems like beginners always have a hard time with the catching, the tip of the wing and then the wing flipping over how do you coach people to avoid it?

Yeah, I think the biggest tip that we have passed around, that's a very helpful for everybody is we always just say whatever direction you're going, punch the water or punch, punch the ground. And what that does with your backhand is make that wing fly. Because most people just pull in, it's I'd say kite surfing or other things, everybody's reaction is to pull in and if you actually steer your back, hit back hand, it makes that wing fly above your head.

So it has a lot to do with just slowing down your front hand and steering with your backhand, but we always would say, punch the water, punch the ground. If you're, if you feel like that wing tip is going to catch, cause all you're really doing is just turning that wing to lift up. And that was a really helpful one.

And I'll be Frank with everybody. I struggled for three days straight and I consider myself pretty skilled and I got murdered at this. I didn't grow up wind surfing. So it was like all new to me. And I did exactly what you said. I went straight into the water and I was like, I can figure this out.

And I couldn't even get up on the board cause I couldn't fly the wing. And it took that process of just getting beat to, to realize that I should fly the wing a little bit more and build my way into it. Yeah. It's probably something you just have to pretty much do as get humbled a little bit to start with, so maybe if you think you can just do it, just go in the water, get humbled a little bit and then you'll figure out that you should learn it on land for us.

Like we don't really need to tell people that an interesting thing is in the video that's playing right now we see Damon and Carrie Kelly is my sister-in-law and Kelly grew up in Idaho. She has never done any water sports. She has never really been in the water. Like no surfing, no no wind.

Nothing in the water. And when I came here I started winging and she got interested and she wanted to learn and now she's doing it and it's been, yeah, it's been like about five months. And, but within three months, like she was like up and falling both ways. And she learned falling with the wing.

Sometime the easiest way is definitely falling or I'll behind a boat, which to just, she just went straight to the wing. And so that, it shows that it's possible. You don't have to have experience doing something else, but for sure don't expect this to be easy.

It's helpful anybody, but the truth is if you put in the time and you keep trying and you go and, whenever you can, you will get it at some point. So for sure, Yeah.  It's not an easy sport to learn, but it's definitely not impossible to learn, obviously.

Especially if you have, some instructions and stuff like that, people. Yeah. It's funny. Cause people, when they start to foil, they always think oh yeah, I watched a bunch of videos, so I can see what they're doing. I can do it. And especially people that already know how to surf and stuff like that.

And then they pretty much get humbled the first time they try it, it's definitely not, it's definitely very different from surfing. And and even with the wind surfing background and knowing how to foil already, it took me a while to learn it. Although I think for me, because I already knew how to foil and I could wind surf, it was a pretty quick learning curve, but yeah.

If you have no experience with any wind sports and so on, then yeah. It's not, it's basically like you have to learn two things, foiling and weight when you're handling together. Yeah, for sure. And Gwen, he was funny when I first met him literally the day I met him, I think I gave him my winger.

He's never tried it. And I'm like, I don't know. This guy seems awesome. Super genuine. I was like, take my gear and I, and it was blowing like 30 knots. He just went and he gave it a shot and that's how it started. It was awesome. That's awesome. Yeah, to me like the most important, when you do anything is like going out there and doing it.

I never wait until things are perfect to study, it's if you want to get into running but you, I'm not gonna go on the run until you have the, the new shoes, the GPS watch the running shorts. For me, I'm like I want to start running.

Okay. Let's do it. And maybe I'm going to go out with the wrong shoes. Okay. I figure it out on the way and along the way I make it better, but. Sometime I think one mistake that can be done is just never starting because of waiting to have every single line up perfectly. I think to me it's better to stop and have the wrong gear, have the wrong condition, but go out there and learning by making mistakes is actually a great way to learn.

Yeah.

Yeah. I know. It definitely sometimes people, and I think the same is true with being on YouTube. Sometimes people think they have to have a recording studio and perfect camera gear and whatever. But really a lot of times, like the way I started it was just like shooting some phones.

Shooting some videos on an iPhone and then posting it. And it was, it's more about the con creating content that, that is helpful to people I think is the most important thing, really, not having perfect video, but you guys definitely do a good job on both sides. And actually, so Gwen, I'm gonna stop the screen share on here for a minute, but for you, it's, I think 6:00 PM here in Hawaii, it's like noontime.

So it's a little bit early to drink beer, but I noticed that you showed us the beer can earlier. So can you, so this is really cool. It's a Cabrina drift and BU it's a collaboration between Airstory brewery based in Charleston and Cabrina, and basically it's a program called project. So it's a it's a project called new found freedom.

And basically it's to help people with disabilities maybe amputee or mental disabilities or any kind of disability to help them get it. Guiding and whinging. Or the prostate from GSBM is going to to finance this project. And so last weekend we were actually in Charleston and it was a 11 participant, a lot of them from special forces they've got hurt and maybe he's yeah, like missing a leg, two legs and we got them into guiding and winging and it was like, amazing.

So yeah, this is just to, to finance this project. And it should be available in many places. But for now I think you would have to go to the brewery as story. It's a story. Yeah, it's for a brewery company in China. Yeah, that's sounds great. Earlier I heard like birds chirping and stuff like that.

Are you like in the forest or something like that? It sounds like you're like out in nature or something. Yeah, I'm outside on the deck. But I'm here in Cape Hatteras with even niche from Cabrina. We are filming some content with Kia, he and yeah, a bunch of writers.

I saw he a couple of weeks ago on the north shore. He's so he's in on the east coast now? Yes, he's here. He's here we are. Yeah. We are like doing some filming and unfortunately this week we have no wind, but hopefully wind picks up. Okay. How come Damian's not. He didn't make, he didn't make the cups.

Okay. All right. Let's talk a little bit about then more advanced stuff in wing filing. So I saw you recently just posted a video on doing three sixties, so I'm gonna, I'm going to pull that one up here, how to do a 360 video. So yeah, let's talk a little bit about the progression and tricks you're working on and maybe walk us through this one.

Yeah. I just down the street 60 I, I Damien get me into trying new stuff and actually like the funniest thing is often when we make a video about something, I'm filming I'm behind the camera, but I actually learn a lot from just filming it and then I go out there and I try it.

Like we made a video recently was how to work the dog guiding it's when you dumb your kid in the water, you're falling, you dumb the cat and you keep writing it and you launched a guide again. I filmed it and then right after they in was like, all right. And then. When it's going to go out there and try it.

And that was not even like part of the plan. He just said it at the end of the video. But then I went out there and tried it. So yeah it's really fun. Like filming was Damon act or sold them a lot of stuff. And I go out there and try it. Yeah. That's awesome. I just saw Damien, you have your it's your daughter, right?

This is a, the reason why I'm not up and the truth is Gwen's been teaching me stuff. So he's actually teaching Evan, everything up there, but really what is taking over, he is the cream of the crop, a father. This is a little Ava, she's our little nugget and I'm super blessed. I have a wonderful family, beautiful wife.

And yeah so Gwen's teaching Kiani and a few things.

So when you have kids also, you're fine. No. I'm I'm married, but no kids. No. Okay. Yeah. I find whenever you have I talked to about this about with keen to wild as well, and you said that when you talk about weed foiling and get all into it and think about it, stuff like that then, and then you get on the water.

It's everything comes easier if you have that, the right mindset to start with. So we're talking about if you're on the way to the beach, listening to a podcast or something, or like a conversation like this kind of gets your mind in the right place and gets you stoked.

And then probably the same thing when you're shooting a video and then getting the instructions and then trying it for real. So you guys have been making pretty quick progress with the wing flow. You know what I mean? Like we were saying, we were talking about how it's not that easy to learn, but once you figure it out and you progress pretty rapidly, it seems what do you agree with that? Yeah. I, here's what I would say. And, we spoke a little bit about it, but I would say there's a lot of people that are nervous about going to the beach and struggling and looking bad because they may have been a good kite surfer or maybe a good something, whatever.

They're just worried about looking bad. And I always am like, okay, everybody's been there, so just go be there and you'll progress. And I say that truthfully in the best thing you can do is just go talk to people because everybody's usually willing to help or give a tip because they like to share the same passion.

You, myself, Gwen, everybody likes to share information and help somebody. So I think you'd be surprised and maybe a lot of people are shy to talk to somebody. And I would always say, man, talk to people, ask questions and just watch it learn. Maybe you'll get some information, but I would say yes.

The wing foiling sport is just evolving super fast. The first thing I wanted to do right off the bat was backflips and I'm still working on the backflip because. It's one of the scariest tricks that I've done, period, across the board in everything I've ever done, just cause it's I don't know you, the Chi you can hang from things.

The wing is just I feel like there's just nothing there to hang you. So it's pretty wild if it goes wrong, but it's the sport's evolving incredibly fast. You're doing it in places nobody would think. And you're pulling surfers in that are foiling, and now they're like it's windy.

Why not get a wing? So it's completely doable. And intercostals lakes, gusty places, mountains, absolutely endless. So that's why it's super unique. And it's just a great thing. You can share it with the whole family. Yeah. I think there is like a unique like opportunity right now to get into winging.

And the amazing thing is, most people are like getting into winning, so everybody's progressing together. It's a new spot. So I think it's really fun, like right now to get into it because you figure out things like in the same time as everybody, where if you maybe sat in 10 years then, yes, there would be like more resources to progress, but I think it's really fun to be like progressing as the sport is progressing as well.

For sure. And just to have the gear improving so much, like the foils are getting and the wings are getting so much better so quickly. So actually, so let's talk a little bit about the equipment. So let's start with the foils, like what kind of foils do you use and where do you recommend starting on and what are you using now?

And what's the progression. Yeah. That's a loaded question. I would say look I w personally I love, I think Cabrina foils and lift walls. There. There's some my favorite foils in the industry, for sure. I would recommend to most people out there, we live in Florida. So winds are a little bit lighter, but I would even say no matter where you are in the world, it wouldn't hurt to have a wing around, call it the two fifty three hundred or 2000 square centimeter or bigger wing, which is a very large wing.

And the reason why is, if you're not very good, you're at least going to have a wing that kind of gets you up the soonest as possible. The other kind of big mistake, a lot of people make is maybe they have a 12 foot board and there they throw a foil on it, and they're really struggling to even get up when it's windy.

And the truth is you have a huge surface area that's sticking to the water. So you actually want the shortest thing you can get within reason with high volume or high leader. So you can actually stand on it and float and it's stable. That's the easiest, in my opinion, for learning for foil and board, as far as wings, the good Brina wings I think are absolutely awesome.

We have two different versions and personally I like them both. I think the X two has incredible low end. So the sixes and sevens are incredible in the low end. And then the mantis is. Wave riding efficient machine, for sure. But I think, truthfully, I'd say wings, you could just get your hands on something and go for it is definitely, it changes things up.

As you get better, you go to smaller foils. And poor Gwen. I throw everything at him. I'm like, try this, do this. Do I need to just whoa wow. Look at this. And he's doing all these tricks and I don't know. It's pretty wild to see how he went from. Here's a wing Gwen, try it in 30 knots and it's probably too big, but that's all we had.

And now he's like doing three sixties and he's learning everything. And then he learned the 360 videos coming soon. But 180 360, I don't even know what it's called.

Awesome.

Yeah. So wait, what is that move? You're talking about, the hour drive. So the funny thing is, the funny thing is, right now for winging like tricks you don't find a lot of videos. And when I feel. On the outdrive. I actually didn't really know that there was a trick and that's just something, a transition that I would do guide falling.

And I was like, ah, I think I could do it with a wing, so I just tried it. And then later I found on YouTube oh it's called now drive. And there was a video about it. So I watch it and it definitely helped me. So now we made a video about it because we just didn't like that move.

And so it's fresh now mine and they can, we can really give good tips to people. But the next thing that we need to tackle is the flakka and Daniel has been like different. They're like doing it like the past. I don't know, like a couple of weeks he has been like landing like so many. The next video coming would be the flagger.

Yeah, I finally is just starting to figure out how to land them, but I've done like probably hundreds of them where I crashed. So for some reason I have, so what's the secret to pulling off the landing with the wing? It seems like it's always hard to get the wing right on the landing for me. Yeah, I would say so my tips for the flakka would be, and I'm not a professional yet at it, but I would say I was always trying to just go massive.

So I was just trying to do a massive 180 and truthfully, I would say I know in anything learning, I would always take small steps. So I would say, just get the full out of the water. Flip your board. One eight. And you don't need to go massive. You're just trying to get emotion and learn the most motions.

If you can get the board to go 180, the next tip is when you swing that wing across into the wind, you want to try to have it as level with the horizon and actually pull your front hand close to you, which kind of levels the wing off. I would always keep it out in front of me and it just, you just get back winded and just get, smoked and flip over.

But I would say just, really think of the, how the air works, hitting the wing, and I think that'll really change it. The next best thing I would say is man, try it like 50 times on the beach. Cause you're going to really learn what to do or what not to do with that wing when you spin it across.

And in the wind. Yeah, the tip that gunner gave me that really helped is just to keep the wing at keep it at the level of your head that don't get it up here, keep it like this. And then that way you can spin it around. You pretty much have to bring the wind through the wind. You can't really do it over your head.

Cause then it just close you backwards. Yeah. So it's like keeping the wing load. That seems to have helped me in that. And then, like you said too, like not doing like a huge air, you don't have to be super high for it. That's it. That's a good tip too. And then spinning the board first and then having everything else.

Follow it. Yeah. Yeah. Just build your way into it. I think when I first saw Gwen and showed a video or something, I was like, oh my gosh, that thing's sick. The first thing I do is try to do in the air. Cause I'm like, for sure I can do three sixties all the time. Total wipe out. And I was like, okay, maybe I should build my life.

So yeah, it's fun. It's fun for us. We're learning too, and that's such a passion for us because it's, every day you can learn something new and then you get to share it with people and share your mistakes, which is brilliant because that's, we're making every mistake, just like everybody else.

And our goal is to be like, we did all this wrong. Sure. Try this. Cool. So what about boards? What kind of boards are you using and what was the progression on the boards of what do you recommend for beginners? And then how do you progress to where you are now? Yeah, I would say bores a totally recommend I would say general size, I would say for beginner would be anywhere from five, four to I dunno, six.

Five maybe. And I say that's a little bit longer, but I say it because there are a lot of people that are very large out there and you want to make sure it's within reason to them. But I would say leader wise, I would say is the most important and with like stability. So I would say anywhere from a hundred leaders, if you're, I would say 185 pounds, that's pretty solid all the way up to, if you're 250 pounds, we're talking 130 plus leaderboard, just to give you that stability, to learn the sport a lot easier now, as you get better, that boards here's what I would say too.

That's super important as you get better. Yes. You can go to all the small boards and do all the tricks, but I would even say for most people, those boards are absolutely perfect for your longevity. And the reason I say that is every day you can go and if it loads out or the wind dies, you're still milking your wing in and you're standing there going, if you have a synchronous.

You're swinging them back. So you're always up and doing it versus climbing up or trying to get up. And that's very helpful. As far as like my favorite boards, I would say the Kareena macros are awesome. Lyft has an amazing wean boards as well, but I would say it's just coming up with the right size for your weight.

And for me, I'm 155 pounds. And I would say to stand on around 70 liters is perfect for me to fully stand the balance on it and go. And then I would say obviously you can go a lot smaller all the way down to 28 liter boards, but it's definitely changes everything. Yeah. I meant to go on a tiny sinker board.

You have to have steady strong winds. So it's hard to do that with when the wind starts to drop off and stuff. Okay. So w where do you what does the future hold, like? Where do you see the sport going and what do you see for equipment? Do you have any ideas or things you would like to see in the future?

I'll jump in quick and then I'll let him go ahead and jump in here. Cause I'm always talking. That's my issue. I'm sorry guys. But I, I was just talking to a guy on a phone yesterday and I see this at resorts. I know it sounds crazy ski resorts open area resorts snow, because the easiest way to learn this would be on the snow or the ice, like for sure, because you're actually, I would say land boarding, but I would even say if people ski or snowboard, it's the perfect way to learn it because you're early.

Kind of going, you just stand there and there's no, there's not a lot of surface tension, so you can just go so you can learn the wing and you can actually do this. And I could see people going across sliders and hidden kickers. And I just see it, I see that potential, but I would say the biggest thing it does, that's super unique to me is it takes places that you never thought you would ever wing an opportunity to go play.

And what I mean by that is kitesurfing you, professionals can get into some pretty crazy places in gusty winds, but I would say the winging, you can go anywhere and you can really, it opens the doors to a lot of incredible opportunities. So I think this word is going to boom. For sure.

Yeah, I was living in I'd hope before I came to Florida and I was guiding on the lake. It's a big lake and it's amazing, but people cannot get into cutting them because yeah, trees everywhere. The launch is super sketchy. There's no way you can learn. There is no beach, like it's right.

Like the trees and then the water often the wind from where you have to stand from the wind is offshore. So you have, and then the wind drops and like you end up swimming with all Yogi. And that's where I see winging is going to be a game changer. So like in places like this, like a mountain now people are not going to be able to stop winging because it's a lot safer.

If the wind dies, you Alan's is big bone. You can swim back. No problem. If it's gusty, no problem. It's gonna open definitely like new locations and make it possible to a lot of people that would have never considered guiding is intimidating. And I think meaning is really gonna appeal to a lot more people just because we is, I wouldn't say it's easier, but I would say it's a lot safer when you talk a lot more big enough.

Yeah, that's a good point. And actually I wanted to give a shout out to this, our, a YouTube watcher. His name is Joe skill, and he's a paraplegic. He's actually the one who said, I should interview you Damien and has been watching all your videos and all my videos. And he's totally into winning even though he's in a wheelchair.

And so I wanted to ask you Glenn, like you said you when did that, with disabled people, so how do you get introduced to someone with that's a paraplegic? How do you introduce them to these sports? Yeah we, this weekend, this past weekend we had somebody that was missing two legs.

And we just had him on the standup paddle. He was able to see it so he was just sitting on the standup paddle with the wing and and he had a lot of fun. For him it's something like he would have never considered. If you are already into like wing falling, you might think, okay.

Doing the wing on the standup, other is not that fun, but for him, it was a an incredible experience that he would have never even been able to do it. He was also, we introduced him to cutting also, and he was doing body drag and had so much fun. So it's not about in this case it's not about having him like, okay.

The only way to do it is having on the wing, up on the phone. No, there is in-between, there is a lot of way to do it. That is still going to be really fun for him because yeah, it being on the wetsuit, being connected with the wind and everything, it is an incredible. Yeah, that sounds great. I was also thinking, actually Joe was saying that he was thinking about doing it with a small wing in a sport wheelchair and just like on, on a parking lot or something like that.

And that, that sounded interesting too, an interesting way to do it. Yeah, for sure. He'll be going and doing backflips in no time.

Yeah. Sounds like he's into, so let's talk a little bit about the YouTube channel. So what are your goals? What's your strategy? What, I know you said you're putting out a new video twice a week. How do you do that and how do you keep that motivation to, to, I know it's a lot of work to write, to, to produce all the video and the editing and.

Yeah. I would say the motivation we're we're we have plenty of motivation and I can go down and just unleash because there's so much information out there that we can share with people. And it's not that we can't, we just, anybody can really, and we just have the opportunity to be able to work good together.

And I would say, truthfully, I've never met somebody. And like Gwen, because he's so quick and motivated and he sees the biggest thing. I would say that, that I would say most people struggle with in video is what is your direction? What is your goal? I would say Robert, you're actually brilliant at it, but you have a reason behind everything and you put it together and it's an, it's a presentation that people want.

Capture that info Gwen, same thing. He has a vision when he makes a video it's going to be, this is the message. And I think that's the best thing you can have is just have an opening and middle and an end and a message. And so our goal is to share as much info with people. And I would say, there's days we go and we do, I think truthfully, our max day was 10 videos in a day, but in a four hour period now, is it all the footage in that day?

No, we've captured the footage throughout times doing different things. But I would say, I think the motivation is there big time, because it's so exciting to hear people that just get, get, are living their best life because of it or just even if they gave it a shot and they're enjoying it and they're struggling, but they're enjoying it to us.

That's everything. Just the. Life is about living. It's hard to get up sometimes and it's hard to, look at the positives. And I think that's the reason why we're trying to pump them out as many as we can to just help people. Yeah. So the funny thing is just an hour ago I was filming a division.

Somebody came up to me and asked are you going I just watched your video. And actually it was like the dark drive. And now he's getting, he just did the duck drive and now he's getting into the 360. Like this, like we really see that we are making a difference.

People are commenting on the YouTube channel all the time. And we go to the beach and people are coming to us. And on this day, like the biggest thing I think that is keeping us going is that we enjoy the process. We want to, we have, we want to make help as many people as possible, but we don't have a goal of, I dunno, getting like a million subscribers or, it would be great, but the truth is even if we don't, we are still going to do it because that process is what we enjoy.

We are doing it and that's fulfilling in itself. Yeah, that's great. That, that happens to me a lot too. Like when I go down to the beach, not even just in Hawaii, anywhere in the world, really like in, in Holland or in Australia, people come up to me as oh, I learned how to win, how to stand up pallet board from you or whatever.

So it's pretty pretty cool to, to get that kind of feedback for sure. But here's that video about how to duct jibes? So maybe we can break that down a little bit the learning, how to deduct Jack, cause people have been asking me about that. What are you doing? How do you do that?

This one's classic because I'm that gentleman who's in this video, we call him the legend. His name is Harry Andrews. Andrew's any truly is a legend. This guy he's done it all. And I've been lucky enough to know him for many years. And when I say done it all learned to paraglide together, race, motor, cross.

Absolutely. The guy does everything and he does it like, we talk about Kioski and Glenn and Evan and all these professional kites are hers. You watch Harry at the beach. He's like doing all these board offs and flipping it around and putting it on his feet. The guy is incredible, but we're lucky enough to have him here in Jupiter is a dear friend of mine.

And One day. He's God, Damien, I'm doing the duck job. I'm like, what the heck is a duck job? I've never, ever heard of a duck jive. And he's out there practicing it. And so the next day I'm like, wait, dude, Harry's doing the duck jab. I don't even know what it is. So I went and tried it and I'd go into these downwind turns going like a hundred miles an hour on the wing would hit me and flip and twist.

And I was like total disaster. But my tips to everybody trying to learn how to duck jive would be try it on the beach again. I always say that, but you can really learn your hands and what to do with the wing on the beach first. And you can, watch these videos and in Gwen slows it down so you can actually see the process of the wing and how to drop it.

But the most important thing is you're going to, you're going to crack off downwind because you need to take the tension out of the wing, but you can't crack off to straight down in, or else you're actually gonna have a backwind issue, but I would say you need to be going down when and that's going to help take some pressure off.

And then you just steer your way around and you're going to drop that wing down and it's going to circle around. And, but I would say the biggest tip to me, I would say is there's a downwind movement. And that's, you got to take the pressure off that wean for it to spin. Yeah.

Releasing the pressure from the wing. And then I like to like the back handle, I'd like to move my backend forward to the second handle so I can grab the very back handle with my backhand. And then I look for the front handle. Like I like, I always that's if you miss that, grabbing the front handle on the other side, then it's really hard to pull it off.

So the quicker you can grab that and get your hand on the front handle again, then it's free twist or preterm. And I would say everybody's different, right? So some people have comfortable things like Gwen learning a new trick off the pay took it. Cause it just felt comfortable. If you feel comfortable, maybe twisting your handle before you go into it, try it because it may work for you.

It may not work for others, it never hurts to try some of these things to better your progress that day. Yeah. Right on. I hear we're getting another, yeah. So these ads are obviously pretty annoying for people who watch the videos, but that's how YouTube is get a little bit of money from the videos.

So here he's yeah, grabbing the wing pretty far in the back, grabbing the front handle sometimes. Yeah. Like when I crashed and CG, cause they don't grab the front panel. That seems to be the one of my issues, which is nice on like the wing that we are using Damien and in Harry and I the Cabrina X tool, like the handles are very wide and I totally I really loved that because he makes grabbing the handle on, in this case, like a bit easier.

And then one of the advantages of this move to an in light wind, if you do it right, you can do it completely without getting back winded. Versus sometimes if you do a regular jibe and you're moving down, when you get like the apparent wind can actually be against you. So you can get back winded sometimes in the light went jive.

So I liked doing it in really light wind conditions sometimes. Yeah. Good move to learn. That's what we ride in. So

that's where we'd love to try an island.

What conditions do you have usually? What are the winds like and how the yeah. What kind of conditions. I'd say we get to choose to, I'd say we get five to third, I would say, there's, we used to have a lot of cold fronts that were really powerful and we'd have 30 plus, but I would say on average you would be a good day and be like 12 to 25 maybe.

Or in the twenties, that'd be a magical day. So it's perfect for learning, but it's we don't really get the cold fronts like we used to get and we still do, but it's definitely less and less. So the wind is not like Hawaii or it can sustain 30 to 40 all the time. So yeah.

Yeah. It's a little bit different for us here on Oahu and Maui. Just the way the island is shaped with the wind. It kind of funnels the wind between the two sides of the island, but on a wall it's usually like about 10 knots later than on Maui. As when we can barely get going, it's already cranking on Maori, so it's not where it's not quite always, but at least we do have steady Tradewinds and yeah. Luckily global warming hasn't affected the Tradewinds. It seems plus on the wing foiling, you can really get going and less wind than you need for windsurfing or even cutting, I think or in gusty winds, it just works better because yeah, if you have to wait for a couple of minutes for the next Gustin, once you're up on the foil it's pretty easy to keep it going, even in really light winds.

Yeah, it's and that's, you nailed that perfectly is, you're in a lighter wind spot, we're in a lighter wind spot. And I would say across the country, there's a lot of places that are light winds, but even gusty. And I would say to throw a kite up a hundred meter line or a hundred feet line and have kites phone and disasters, it's just so easy to grab a wing and give it a shot.

And I think, Gwen nailed that earlier, but that's that's why it's so achievable for people. And you truly can go live your best life and try something new and learn something new because we all like learning. And that's what it's all about. So as we learn how to do duck jives and all these things that this legend here brings to us, and we're like, what was that?

What are we doing? Okay, we're going to try that. That's great. In terms of the skills that you have, would you say a lot of, oh, that one. I'm just watching it, the video here, but it's the skills that you have, like how much of it is like talent, like natural God-given talent and how much of it is just practicing and doing it over and over and screwing up until you can find me do it.

I would say for most people, look, everybody's been given a talent and I would say for sure, there's people out there that are significantly, you know, more, advance or they've been given stronger muscles or whatever it may be. But I would say, I would just say to anybody out there.

Yes. You put a lot of time in the water, you're going to get good at it. A lot of people skiing, I always remember this. It's a good analogy, but everybody skiing would say, man, you're really good at skiing or whatever. And I'm like I skied every single day, literally through the summer, every single day, every day I could.

And they would only go on a ski trip three times a year. You're only going to be as good as how much effort you put into whatever you do. Make sure to put effort into something and just like Landon or yourself, you study it, you learn it, you learn your craft and you'll be incredible at it.

I would say I'm very blessed and I've been very skilled and I'm but I would say I'm no different than anybody out there. And I say that truthfully, because you can learn something if you put your mind to it. And I don't care if you're 200 pounds, I just think anything is possible. If you really just put your mind to it.

He's teaching right now. Yeah. No, not quite.

So do you ever a lot, I think a lot of it is really is mental. Like some days you go out and everything's just perfect, you're in tune with the conditions in your equipment. Everything's perfect. And you feel like Superman, you can do anything. You can pull off all kinds of moves. And then the next day you go out on the same equipment, the same conditions, and you're like a total cook again.

So does that ever happen to you and is there anything you can do about that or your mindset? Yeah, I would say, you nailed it and you've opened it that way, but I would say, look, you always got to go into every day, every session, every work appointment, every time with your wife or your loved one, whatever it is always be looking for the positive in whatever the situation is because you're spot on.

For everyone already out there, Gwen and I go down to the beach and we may have learned a new trick and then the next day you can't do it because you just, it didn't click again and that's normal and that's totally fine because maybe your muscles are fatigued or maybe you just are a little off or the conditions are a little bit harder or whatever it may be.

That's part of the learning process. So don't, if you get it and you get up willing in one day, don't think tomorrow you're going to be winging exactly the same, it will still keep coming. But I think a lot of people get frustrated or they get beat down and I would just say, look, be open to maybe it wasn't the perfect conditions.

Maybe I just wasn't on my game today. So it's a hundred percent mental and it's how you look at it and always have a better outlook on whatever it is, whether it's winging or life or depression or whatever, just you got to have a better outlook. And I think if you change that mentally and your whole life and work and relationships and weaning and.

Will just absolutely blow your mind. You will change. You will surround yourself with good people. All of a sudden, opportunities will come, you'll learn the duck jive like I did. And that was just cause I was surrounding myself with good people and Gwen did the 180, whatever it was called. I still don't even know what it's called, that's how I learned it.

I didn't think of it, but it was a great opportunity to see it. Wow. This is great. I'm looking at the positive. Let's give it a shot versus I'll never do it. I'm not going to try it. I can do these other things. I'm really good at I'm going to keep doing them instead. I'm like open to try it. Why not? What's the worst can happen.

I crashed, I looked like a moron. I crashed all the time and a lot of people are nervous to crash or look bad. And I would say, look, that is life learning, making mistakes, and your mistakes lead you to be a better person and relationships and work and business and you name it. And that's how you learn.

So I've made a lot of mistakes. So I get pretty good things. Yeah. I think I would say sometime you have to detach yourself from from the goal or like still have a goal, but not be so like the fulfilling path is an only attributing the goal the process should be fulfilling.

And if you can do that then. Whatever the outcome is, you're going to be stoked because you are doing, you are in the process. So for me, I just see it as how, however frustrating it is that sometime that as good as the day from before but you are still out there and that's the process.

And so that, try to get that being fully fulfilling and the outcome when, the outcome is good or not. That's okay. But if you put in the time and you go out there and you have fun and you enjoy the process. Yeah. It wouldn't be, it would be good.

Yeah. You still learn something even when you're a coop and nothing's working, but let's say, do you have any pointers for someone that's stuck in that negative mindset or whatever, getting upset with themselves or being stuck in a negative mindset? How can you turn that around as the more positive and optimistic or, obviously you learn a lot better when you're, when you have a positive mindset, right?

Yeah. We joke, but we'll we'll text you Harry's phone number so everybody can call Harry and they can personally get advice. Now I would just say, look, everybody goes through this. Just know that you're not the only one. And the ways to get out of it is to say yes, just say yes to something, get up and do something and it can be anything.

It can be, go for a walk. It can be just get up and do something. Because if you just keep dwelling on it, you will just put yourself lower and whatever it may be, or you'll get deflated. And you just don't want to try anything. You don't want to do anything. And I would say the best thing you can do is change your scenery, change, whatever you're doing, get up, do something different.

Yeah. Take your brain off it, take a break, relax, whatever it may be. Just change that but know that there's the process. The process that Gwen speaks about is everything. I went to Hawaii. I think I have the speed record with Alex Guerin Hawaii. Maybe. I don't even know if that stands, but that was a process to get a speed record in Hawaii.

It was not about getting a speed record. It was about. Going out with my buddy and going as fast as I can, and his daughter did it and it was just incredible experience. And did we know we could do it? We didn't even know if the wind was going to be perfect. We thought it would be, but who knows? It's when and you just don't know.

So just get up and always look at the glass, full it's just there, you just, if your car breaks down, locate ran good until today. That's okay. Get it fixed. Moving on and look at the positive. Don't look at my life's over. Oh my gosh. It's there, there's no gain from that. Yeah.

And I would say every time you do something and you failed, it's good because that means you are one step closer to six to succeed. The more you fail, the closer you get to, being successful. So don't get discouraged and, and draw the process. And the more you fail, the better you're going to get.

Yeah. It's like that quote from Wayne, Gretzky, like that you miss every shot you don't take. So just, you gotta keep trying to achieve things, even if you have to fail or, hundreds of times or thousands of sense I was thinking about that Thomas Edison failed like thousands of times before you invented the light bulb.

Yeah, not giving up too easily. It's part of it. And I think a lot of people a dear friend of mine, Julie Mancusos Olympic athlete or Olympic medalist, many time, whatever. And even when I won my world championship, you're your pinnacle, people think it's, that's the moment. That moment is just okay, what do I do next?

So just know that, your life, whether it'll go through these roller coaster. So the best thing you can do is always just keep learning, keep trying, keep opening the door to try new things, because that'll keep a healthy lifestyle versus getting so fixated on something that if you don't achieve it, I don't make a million dollars.

I don't get the cool job. I don't get the perfect setup, whatever it may be. You're just going to get crushed versus. How many workers are as I can today may lead to me owning my own business. But you just got to, always have a goal or a dream, for sure. I think that's a really good thing and work hard and treat people the way that you would want to be treated.

And I think you'll be incredibly successful. Yeah. That's a good point. One thing that people say, like writing down goals, like in, in writing or telling other people about it, it holds you more accountable to achieving that goal. Is that something you agree with? Is that something you do that you have written goals?

Yeah. We have 15 notebooks here of videos that are coming. I'm just kidding. I just think, yes, I've always been whether it's writing it down or having it in the back of your brain, but the most important thing. And I'm one to know cause I've, I had a pretty bad accident midway through my life here that led me to my beautiful wife and a lot of great things.

Everything happens in life. So I would say just because you think you're meant to be something, so say I thought my whole life, I was going to be one of the best ski racers in the world who would have known, I would have ended up in Florida, playing with wings and kitesurfing and who knows, so just start taking those roads and it's gonna lead you to some special, incredible opportunities in life.

I would just always be open to learning and take different paths and you'd be pretty excited on your outcome.

Do you have anything to add that to that wins? Yeah. I've done so many things in my life, like trench change like path so many times. And I come from a family that's very traditional, like in a way, like you, you go to school for something and then you get that job and then you keep that job and you get married, you have kids and you retire and that's it.

But for me I, I've never been change is scary sometimes. In the end, like you just have to be open trigger yourself first. Like when you do something and and it's not fulfilling or it doesn't make you happy, then you, it's your responsibility to find what's, what you want to do.

What's what makes you happy? I think that's the priority. And then that will lead you to many different ways and it's not going to be a straight line, but if you if you are open to trying new things, if you keep don't get stuck somewhere and opportunities come all the time. So you just have to be open to it and change path.

When. Yeah, definitely. And I agree that you don't have to live a boring life. That's what you make of it. So courage everyone to try to live their life to the fullest. So let's talk a little bit about the, kind of the obsession with foiling. Once you get into foiling, you get that feeling and it's I want to say it's like an addiction or it's like a drug that you want again and again.

So is there a dark side to it? Is there like a downside or is it just a healthy thing for you? Is there, do you ever feel like it's, maybe there's a negative downside to it. I think the negative would be like, if you're in a relationship, you have to buy multiple foils for sure. For your wife, for your kids, that would be the negative of it.

No, I would say, they're, I would say the negative that everybody is always worried about, is it danger? I'm going to get caught. I heard of people getting cut or hurt or, and I would just say, look, yes, it's dangerous. But I would say you get into your car every day. That is 10 times more dangerous.

And everything is within reason. So if you take it slow and watch your YouTube channel and learn all this stuff and you can do it and you can learn safely and you may have some setbacks. That's all part of it. But I would say it's everything in life has it's dangerous.

And if you're always worried about every danger, you're never going to do anything. So you got to take a little bit of a risk and go talk to the girl that you wanted to talk to. If you don't talk to her, you're never going to get her for sure. So take that risk and talk to her. So there's so many things that it leads to in life.

And I would say with foiling, the biggest one is danger. And I would say it's only is danger is dangerous as you make it. Learn to Hamilton and Benny. And some of these guys do, and, in Kailani doing the massive waves, that's pushing the limit, but they're also, that is their challenge and learning of them, what is possible.

And I think that's their level, mine may be on a two foot piece of chop and I get scared and I go home. It could be that, but I'm okay with that. And it's fun. Yeah. Yeah. It's different levels of risk. I just watched that a movie about the guy what's his name? Alex Honnold climbing free soloing, El Capitan in Yosemite with like super hard sections, super high off of the ground.

That was incredible. So compared to that, I think wing filing is pretty safe compared to that. And especially on the water, but I get one thing I would say, if you're doing it on land, like on a skateboard or an ice, you do have to be careful, especially when you go fast. A lot of times you can't.

Hold up your head. So if you hit the ground and your head hits the it's, the ice, or that the ground, you can actually get pretty injured. So wearing a helmet and knee pads, elbow pads, and all that kind of stuff. It's definitely a good idea. If your issue, you're not doing it in the wall. And even the water, I think you wearing a helmet is a good idea when you're doing crazy moves, like flips and stuff like that.

We're not going to hurt at all. Any type of safety, Mo impact this to even full wetsuits. So you don't get all scraped up when you're climbing up and down off the board learning, booties for chafing, the top of your feet. I know I needed them the first day when I gave him all my wing stuff, he came home like bloody, and I was like, okay, the good thing is I was in Florida only for two days.

And but just from winging, I guess I only wing once, like one, one day out of the two days. And I still have a scout, sorry. I still have a scout on top of my feet from the skin being gone. And that was in September last year. Yeah, that's actually a good point for people beginning, you tend to like really get rubbed draw in that deck pad, right?

From sliding a knee kneeling and sliding off the deck pad and all that kind of stuff and sliding back onto the deck pad. So that's something maybe wear pants and maybe boonies or whatever. And it's a good idea. When you started out and I've even seen people wearing me knee pads or whatever on their boards.

So any, anything like, that's probably a good idea when you starting on it. Yeah. So what are you plans for the next couple of days when if the wind comes back with, what are you guys doing there? I guess just filming Cape hatred trust has like really good, like down windows and waves, so we just going to be like filming whatever is good for the condition. It seems in the next couple of days, the wind could be good, but we are hoping for stronger wind. So yeah, just having fun and I'm going to be filming them, having fun. How's the weather, how's the weather on the east coast, as it came, patter is a warm enough to go on.

You still need a full wetsuit. Kia, he is going out with just the top. And most people will have a shorty. But yeah it's not too cold right now. Yeah. And then actually I was going to ask you for drone, a drone video of of when you're shooting with the drawn in strong winds, what kind of drone do you use and is there like a certain drawn that's best for high wind?

Okay. The good thing is in Florida, we have mostly like light wind so that, that helps, but I use the DJI air two S and. Sometime drone goes down and that's part of the game, but far strong when I sing, you just have to fly. DGI, like DJI drones, can't fly in CLT five 40 mile winds.

You just have to keep it on sports mode. And you wouldn't be way slower going against the wind. But.

A new drone. It's like a MTV with the headset. And then, so pretty excited to try it a little bit nervous actually, but this thing is supposed to be super fast, so it should be good for flying in strong winds. I haven't had the DJI Mavic mini, and when it's windy, I can't even fly up when, it's barely moving when you're flying into the wind, so it's super slow.

So that's why I figured yeah, I think, yeah, exactly. I think the limitation for flying drones in high wind, you just have to know what's your drones, top speed. And basically if your drone top speed is CLT miles on that way and you go in yeah. 40 miles per hour when you won't get your drone back because they won't be able to make it up when, but so you just have to know what's the top speed.

And that's why going, already the drone is, has some limitation, but as soon as you switch it to sports mode, it makes it like for spirits. So if you go in high wind, you have to switch it in sports mode, but you have to know what, drone top speed is. So the wind is not stronger than that.

Yeah, that's a good tip in all our YouTube videos. We filmed with the helicopter.

Harry is the pilot.

I don't know why our budget seems to be off.

I talk to him like at the beginning of your videos, you always have spreading the love and sharing the stoke and all that kind of stuff. So what does that mean to you? And like how hard you try to achieve that? I think that's just Glen and dead, honest truth, we just we were always positive, I would say.

And yeah, it's just, people want to be around positive energy and I think it's just how we truthfully, we go to the beach. That's just how we are. That's how I try to live my life. And I think the more people we touch doing it, the more people surrounded by us do it. And I think it kinda irradiates on itself.

So I, I always believe that if you can pass it on it, it really does keep going. And. That's why we try to just be upbeat. I know a lot of people, it's tough times in the economy and tough times with work and it's not always perfect, but you can always look at the back side of things and try to just, motivate people and give them the passion to hopefully live their best life.

So how has your life changed as as a result of the pandemic and what were the good things and the bad things for both of you? Good things, bad things. I have a newborn child and she is the most beautiful thing I've ever seen. And my wife turned into the most amazing mother, so absolutely super grateful and blessed.

Did a YouTube thing with Glenn, never thought I'd ever do that. That's amazing. We're helping people got multiple jobs that are absolutely incredible with lift foils and Cabrina kites. And I just I truly couldn't be more grateful, but definitely been working a lot and I'm negative, I would say just can't see your family as much.

And, but, with zoom and all these things, you can speak to people. And so you just look at the positive of it. That's what I would say. So for my side of things, I would say I feel bad for a lot of people out there, but I would say I've been very lucky. So

go ahead. For me yeah, I, yeah, I grew up, growing up in France, my entire family is still in France. Since COVID basically have haven't been able to go back there. So I haven't been back for about two years. So that's definitely the negative part of the pandemic, but than not, he I'm like, living the dream could not have a better life.

And yeah, it was like just a massive change. From the day I met Damian, because I don't know I was in, in Idaho, which is great, but I'm very passionate about the ocean and I've always been really wanting to get involved in water Wells. And I never really saw how that would maybe be like possible because I'm not a per rider.

I would never be involved with any brands on that level. But then, it. I met Damien and, and it was all about helping people and that's what we did is I'm super grateful for all of that and where it got me today is going to be on the wing world tour here next year.

So his claim to fame is just starting. So I started with YouTube with this old guy

from France. So gaming you're sponsored by Lyft and Yeah, I worked for the companies and I've been very lucky athlete and was with a lot of companies and yeah I worked for Lyft Wells. I'm the U S sales manager and with Rena Elma, Southeast sales rep and work been working with Cabrina for over 20 some years.

And Lyft was the company when foil started. I was the Keiser for at the time pushing the limits and that's where the whole foiling started. I dunno, that was like nine or so years ago. I think they first foils hit the U S and in foiling has been around forever, but made the move to get it going so.

Yeah. So Lyft Foyles is based in Puerto Rico. Have you been to their factory and that's every scene they're manufacturing and stuff like that? Yeah. Yeah. Oh yeah. They got an awesome set up and it's just a beautiful family. They're super good people. And, they created this , which is now the new Mecca foiling is just to the masses.

It makes it really easy. You've got to remote and everything's going electric, so it's dead quiet. It's surreal, and I think that's really neat to be a part of it as that's been growing and yeah, it's just, it's going gangbusters. Anything foiling is pretty much going through the roof, so it's pretty cool.

And then of course, Rena is peak, Sabrina's been a legend in the industry for many years and and still is, just always innovative brand. And recently my dear friend took over the company and they're just on this incredible stage to just share. I would say that message back like the beer, they're really trying to take it to another level to help people, instead of just making a product that is a product that everybody can make or get knocked off and just have something in the market.

They're really trying to make something that can better people's lives or goals or whatever it may be. And I think that's, to me, that's a beautiful thing. Yeah. Great. Is there I always like to ask, who else can I interview on for this show? Do you have any recommendations of people I should talk to?

Yeah. Off the bat. When you mentioned something early, I was seeking a grant Corrigan with Hi-Fi foundation. He's actually a paraplegic total rockstar very inspiring. I touched on Julie Mancusos, she's a incredible human but I think grant Korgan would be a pretty, pretty awesome.

That would probably be a pretty special one for you. He's he's incredible human, so cool. Cause you already got Glenn, okay. I would say John Modica, you should have John Modica is also doing amazing things. Okay. Yeah. John Modica is actually the, my dear friend who took over Cabrina and he's he truly is the person that you would never know would run or own a company, but his passion is so powerful of making you the, if it was a t-shirt, he would just literally buy, rip cut 50 different t-shirts and he'd be like, now it's perfect.

And you would just be like I just had this t-shirt for 10 years. I don't know. He's just so on it to make it the best it can be for that, whatever it is. Fins. It's pretty, pretty spectacular and a humble human. And so it's pretty neat. Great. Yeah. I'll ask you for their contact information. It's been like an hour and a half almost, so thanks for taking the time.

And I always like to say from the YouTube analytics, I can see that only about 5% of the people are still watching it. They're very, and it trails off, but do you have any special message for those that are still with us still listening? Oh man. Just look, get up off your seat, do something because everybody out there is I want to start this business or try this or do that.

And you're just going to keep wanting to, you got to get up and do it. And that individual right there with. Yeah, he's got, and he's one incredible humans look super familiar. So who's that with you now? That's a niche what's going on? I don't know if you guys can hear me or not. Probably not. Evan is literally one of the most skilled kiters on the planet.

Absolutely incredible. Oh, we got the whole gang tie. The whole Korean a team up there they're truly superstars. One incredible humans, two incredible athletes. And they all were driven to just get up and make it happen. And I knew Evan when he was riding cones with a trainer kite in the grass and he was this little kid.

He wouldn't talk to you. And now he's an incredible salesperson. He's incredible athlete. He's incredible human. And I think it's just a matter of talking to people and open those doors. So anybody's still listening, which we hope you are. Man, just do what you want to do. There's no reason why you can't do it.

Don't ever set yourself short. You can do it. That's what I would say. Yeah. I guess that's my takeaway from this conversation is that you can live the life you want to live. There's no reason to do something you don't enjoy. There's always Oh, is it possibilities for, following your passion and doing what you love?

I think a hundred percent. Yeah. And we pay you so much for having us on, it's just another place to, to help, hopefully we can touch one person and to us, that's everything, if we can help somebody. Yeah. Okay. That's I think that's a good way to end it. Any last words from you, Glen?

No yeah. Thank you so much. And go out then and give your dream. It's you know, if you keep at it, it would happen. Yeah. Thanks guys. Thanks so much. And make sure you subscribe to. The YouTube channel and check out all those great instructional videos. If you're getting into wing flooding, definitely good stuff you guys are putting out.

So thanks for doing that. And you're helping basically drive the sport forward. I think with those really good tutorials, because in other sports they're not really available necessarily, it's especially that kind of high quality content is not really available for a lot of things.

So thanks for doing that. Doing a great service. Thank you. Thank you. All right, guys. Thanks so much for your time. Take care and enjoy the evening. Aloha. Thank you so much. All right. Hey friends, thanks so much for watching all the way to the end again. Thanks Damien and Gwen for joining me for this show.

And it was another really great episode. Just a couple of notes. Last Tuesday. I did a live video on YouTube where I just talked. But what's new at blue planet answered some questions that I had on YouTube from comments, and then also had some live questions come in through the chat. And the show is joined by people from all over the world.

At 7:00 AM in Hawaii, in Europe, it was 7:00 PM. And then on the mainland that was early afternoon. So people would drive us from all over the place, which was really cool. So I thought it was fun to do that. And I'm going to start doing a weekly show every Wednesday at 7:00 AM, Hawaii time. I'm going to do a live show.

So I hope you can join me for that next live show. I'm going to have the link down below for that video. And if you can join that live and post some comments or questions, that's always appreciated. You can always watch it later as well. So that's not a problem. So thanks again, Damien and Gwen for joining me.

Thanks for posting great instructional videos for everyone out there. Learning how to wing for it's a great service to the community. So thank you everyone for watching. Please join us again next time for another blue planet. Show all over and see you on the water. .

Titouan Galea Wing Foil Interview- Blue Planet Show Episode #12

Aloha friends, it's Robert Stehlik, welcome to another episode of the Blue Planet show.  On this show, I interview wing foil athletes, designers, and thought leaders and ask them in-depth questions about Wingfoil equipment and technique. I'm also trying to get to know my guests a little bit better, their background, how they got into water sports, what inspires them, and how they live their best life.

I'm a visual learner, so I'm adding visual content that you can watch on YouTube, but you can also listen to it as a podcast on your favorite podcast app

Today's interview is with the very first wing foil world champion, Titouan Galea from new Caledonia. If you're into wing foiling as much as I am, you've probably already seen the videos of him doing crazy moves on jumps, back flips on the face of the wave, big airs, riding big waves in New Caledonia and other places. Really impressive stuff. And of course also being able to pull these moves off under pressure during competition and winning the last couple of world championship events.  Titouan breaks down some of the most advanced moves for us, Step by step. We also talk about his background, how he grew up in new Caledonia and now lives in France and about his board, foils, wings and what the future holds for him.

So without further ado, please welcome the talented Titouan Galea.

All right. Titouan, thanks so much for making some time to be on the Blue Planet show. How are you doing today?

Great, thank you for inviting me.

Yeah. Awesome. So here in Hawaii, it's it's 10 o'clock in the morning and for you it's evening, right? Eight o'clock or something like that?  And you're in Montpellier France. Is that right?

Yes

Okay. But originally you grew up in new Caledonia. So can you tell us a little bit about, your background, how you grew up and how you got into water sports?

Yeah. Born in new Caledonia and my father was doing windsurfing and kiting, yeah. Maybe around 2000. So yeah, he teach me when, so thinking like surfing when I was about like eight or nine and yeah, I've been projects learning where mainly and some other places yeah, since.

Maybe I was 12. I started doing it quite often.  Studying wave kite surfing mostly. And then what else I've done? Yeah. Foiling came like maybe six years before. Maybe seven. I started with kite foiling on my own when I was about 18 years old and yeah, just one year after I moved to France and I joined the French team of kite foiling.

So I've been doing lots of wind sports and yeah. Then the wing for the game. So two years ago, and now I'm doing a few other sports most of the time. Pretty much. Yeah.

Awesome. Congratulations on being number one in the world right now in the rankings. That's pretty impressive.

How old are you now? 24

actually, I actually had to look up new Caledonia. I've never been there, but just for people to know where it is. So this is New Calidonia and Australia and Hawaii is here. And then this is new Caledonia, right?

There's a place nearby, which is very famous. Is Fiji.  exactly the same swell, like Cloudbreak receives So yeah, we have same waves as other spots, so yeah, it's really nice space. And actually it's much more like it's windier in New Calidonia then. Yeah. Most of the time it's yeah. When you're in New Cal. So what's the prevailing wind direction.

So what is the prevailing wind?

So yeah, Southeast is like this way, right along the coast. For the surf, is it better on the south shore? On the north shore? Both?

Yeah, cause it's windy almost everyday. It's tricky. Sometimes a winter and a bit north is so we have good surf on the west coast.

Now we surf manly on the west coast. All disposed comes from south is south. Yeah. From depression, south hemisphere. So all this welcomes between a New Zealand and Australia and they, most of them come from south Southwest. So it's all all the stuff sports on the west coast. And so I guess the best ways are probably in the, in, in the winter there, which is summer in the Northern hemisphere.

Is that right? Yeah. That's where we get you as big as well, like June, July, but actually there's way happening. Pretty much all the alarm really it's like entireties is have good swell too in. Pretty much all year long. They receive also no swell. We're not receiving the really, we can have like very good session and increased in may.

Not really, but yes, there's a main season. Yeah. June, July, August. That's where exit peak of swell is where we get the biggest swells. All right. And then, so you've been out on the water windsurfing and kiting and so on since you're you said nine years old or something like that long time before I was pretty much sailing on small boats, like I don't know, optimist and stuff where I started  when I was nine.

And do you have a early childhood memory that where you just realized, oh, I love this. This is what I want to do with my life or. There's always been a passion, but when I moved to France from Nicole, for sure, I said, okay, I really like this. I'm going to try to do it like professionally and try to make it as my job.

And yeah, it's nice. And so did you move to France so you can be easily compete more easily? Or what, why did you move to France? Okay. Y yeah, two levels from Nucala is such a nightmare. There's not much light. It's super expensive. I didn't have big budgets in the beginning, cause yeah, it was just starting.

So I will not live in Newcastle and travel all the time from new Caledonia. It's too much money for me. So yeah. I decided to move France, much more things happening, you guys are now. Yeah. You had to show to people, where is it? There's not much people knowing where it is. It's not a not places like Hawaii is like, everyone is looking how I there's a lot of things happening in Hawaii.

Lots of people are there just a few people that are like writing professionally. So you stay there all the time. To be well known by people. There's not much you can do, like it's better to move to France or Europe where there's more evidence, there's more writers. So it's better for me even to progress and have a bit of emulation.

I can say this in English. Yeah. That's a Friday around you. And also, yeah, now it's a fun. And they are also based in more per year where I'm living. So that makes things easy too. Yeah. So in new Caledonia, are you a French citizen or what is yeah. Yeah. It's like a department of science.

It's easy to stay here for me also. I didn't start in the beginning, but now I'm doing a source today has a pilot license. And so I'm about to finish it in a couple of months. Yeah, looking forward we'll have like much more time to do many other things. Yeah. I guess new Caledonia is pretty far away from France.

It's like pretty much on the other side of the world, right? Yeah. It's 35 hours flying almost because of the connection. Terrible. And also, if you want to know, I dunno, in a state, in the USA, it's so complicated. Really. So is it traveled from where it's super expensive? Like flying from new Kalamazoo to Europe is always more than yet 2000, sometimes 3000 super expensive.

Talk a little bit about flying. I know it looks like you do paragliding and glider, plane flying and so on and you're. I guess you, you said your goal is to become a pilot do you have a pilot's license this now? Or? Yeah, of course this is gliding. So I have the license. I'm also piloting small airplanes.

So yeah, my goal when I will be older is to do it like as a commercial pilot, but it has always been a passion for me to start by writing when I was pretty young. And when I moved to France, I had this thing also guiding super nice. It's much better to do glider here because when it's all the time strong, so it's better to fly a lighter than a paraglider.

Yeah. And then you you also like doing like the kiting on snow around, it looks like.

Thing new gal never will discover this thing. So it was nice to do this was things in trends to realize the mountains, the landscape are amazing. And yeah, it's a nice way to, to visit the mountains. Yeah, that's awesome. Cool. And then now basically you're able to just be a professional wing foiler now, or Kaiden wing further through F1 through the sponsorship, that's enough for you to make a living or do you have any other jobs?

No, for now I have nothing else. So moving from this

before it was a different thing. We, the Federation was helping a lot too. Like it was more, more structured thing. Now we was a wing, so cause it's like everyone, one of the wing is pretty good in the wing too. So it's working great too. Okay. So let's talk a little bit about the wing foil world tour.

So recently you just won both the freestyle and the racing, right? So you're number one in the world right now. How does that feel? Hey, it's nice. We had two, two Evans last year also and both had finished and spouse, a one over one he wants. So I think it's going to be a great battle against this guy again, this year.

Yeah, it seems like he's your biggest competitor right now. Huh? It's

like he's right behind you.

Yeah. Tell us about the last contest you went to, where was it? And and how was it while were the conditions and how has traveling to, how is it to travel during the pendant? It was not a big travel. It's one hour and a half from my house now. So

yeah. I know four people from outside, it was a to travel cause fem a lot. Definitely was okay. And what about the convention? It was nice. Super well, have a nice the place it's like the wind was fully off shore, so maybe it was not waves at all was like the sea. So yeah, it was very difficult to have like big gems and setbacks was really tricky and freestyle.

So on that flat water and we had to racing to we're going to have a wave and I'm really looking forward to it. Cause I think that's a windfall it's much more funnier in ways that war. Yeah. The waves make it more interesting. I guess the, that event in Brazil last year. There was there was some like a small shore break, but not much in terms of like breaking away.

Yeah. It was not breaking ways, but still has, like proper waves to really enjoy it. So yeah. Presumably can do something. So we're calling actually 50% of the score on the ways and 50% on a freestyle. So that was okay. But as you can see, we can there was no way at all. So it was 100% of freestyle.

The wind was just blowing off shore. Yeah. How strong was the wind? Like how many knots do you think about was the wind hit during the contest with w we have five days of competition and we only had two days off and the first day was probably around 30 knots, something like this. And the second day we had 20 to 15 knots no more, but he has, the first day was quite strong, quite cold raining all day.

It was quite a tricky condition. Yeah. It looks perfect in the video, of course. Yeah. Yeah. That was the second day. Was that? Yeah, 15, 25 minutes, depending on the sign.

So what size wing were you using? During the freestyle and what size during the racing? And just curious, like different con equipment Thursday, I told you it was, the wind was pretty strong. So I was on my three five, and that was the last day as you can see, I was on my phone too. Cause it was like, yeah.

Less wind on the first day was the racing Thursday in 30 nights. I was, I think I was in a five and a five. And and the second day we did a race after the freestyle and it was less and less. That's when I went on my, I think on my five and my six or seven after really big wins. So talk about this, on that one back flip, I guess your foil landed on the wing and left a couple of holes in it. And it was okay to just keep going. That was okay. Cause I had the pressure and the motivation was it. I was doing the final against spouse. Yeah. I was building my studying by the like small small streaks.

And I came to do my backlit. Normally I do it all the time, but this time I crashed and I crashed like really bad. So I ended up into the doing with the foil. So it's got a bit like two parts of my wing and it had me a lot of pressure. I saw I pulled still a fly, so I went again, fall back asleep, and then I did my Qualtrics again.

I knew I was in. Good. Yeah. Awesome. And then you, the racing, what we're using different equipment for the racing and like how was that? What kind of course was it and so on? Actually, no, really. I bring, I dunno. Yeah. I bring many boards to test and see actually, yeah, I use exactly the same for freestyling and racing was the racing.

You had a bot. Off downwind where you will not use the wing at all. So you had to pen, so we could not use super small 500, 600. So yeah, so I had my hate Android coming quite soon with a fund that I use this country's guide and I'm racing to, there was really I was supposed to

this done with, but I will have used maybe a 500 or 600 because it was much faster, but because we had this down with, but it's really nice that way. It's not, everyone has such small force, so it was better for everyone, I think. So how did that work? So the downwind part you had to you basically had to pump without the wing or how does that work?

Yeah, it just basically grabs the wing from the front handle, which is in the leading edge and you just keep going. That's it. And then downwind leg, you're not allowed to use the wings. You have to, you just use the waves to end the foil to go down. Yeah. Yeah. It was very short, like longer, but it was like, I don't know, 200 meters maybe normal.

I see. So like a super small, super fast than racing wing, like you would use for kite racing or something like that would be wouldn't work for that. Yeah. Maybe I could do it, but I don't know, take safety and don't take such a small cause it's not working like sailing a normal racing regatta.

It's elimination like freestyle. So if you lose like one race, when you're over, you have no discards, nothing really. You have to perform on each race. Who's one time if you're over so better takes safety. Okay. Interesting. So basically that, that's pretty interesting. So you basically use the same equipment more or less, same foil, same board, same wing too, for the racing industry.

So yeah, the last day, cause it was like very light when a, I use a bigger board. Yeah. For the freestyle. I was using a 30, 80 there's sports and yeah, for the racing, because it was super light when we were on those six or seven meters. How was he seeing a 44, 50

with 50 liters and and a big wing, like how light or how much, when do you need to get up on the foil? Like how many knots would you say? You need to get it?

Maybe seven, something like this? I think around seven. Yeah. If I was still using a small book, 50 liters, it's not so small. If you go like on the sup for example, like for down winner, Like on a sup a thing you can go even lower. I want lower for sure. Maybe we have a 50 liters. That's good.

Wow. That's impressive. So if the DWA came to you and said, Tetouan, you can have a contest anywhere in the world any kind of format. So what would you say this is? This is the perfect contest. What would you choose? I don't know. It's a tricky question for sure. Love to have one in proper way, like I have at home, like big waves or like Cloudbreak or even Whereas like these more, maybe more shoes one I wear or maybe someone might, I guess something like this really visa one day, for sure.

I'm not sure it's going to happen anytime soon. So yeah, it would be nice maybe not such big ways, but I know not super hollow, maybe also retreats in a way, because it cannot bear from trees. But I think now, I'm trying it by now, like to perform tricks into the way, and this is very interesting. I think we've not big waves, like even less than,

but I dunno where honesty.

I don't mind I can go on,

but this space there's many places for sure. We can do this. There's many places we can do maybe in a couple of Brazil. I don't know many places in Maui, too, in front of the beach or even lanes. I don't know many places. Yeah. So wave contest. Obviously you probably the waves are more interesting than the racing, right?

Yeah. Really racing. I don't know,

competing this year for the two, but there's no sense doing racing. We've already tied, fallings out, performing very good already. I think it's better to keep this sport. Yeah, like this really? This is better really. Yeah, you're doing some amazing stuff in the waves and I'm just like pulling off big jumps on the face of the wave and stuff like that.

It's pretty impressive for sure. So maybe walk us through a little bit what you're doing here and what I find really interesting here, when you're doing a bottom turn, how you sh she didn't the way almost like wind surfing and yeah. Can you talk a little bit about that? Your technique?

You're going to have the full story. It's fun. Yeah. It gives a video. You can see on the learning edge. I have a Sikh, which is my comment on it because I had this thing. I could not grab the phone from handle. So that's why I was keeping the wing in my hand. But I've journey. Yeah. Afterwards I saw it looks great.

And it's helped me to do maybe better bottom sometimes, but also you don't see much when you go to this thing because I don't have window in mind. So I don't know. I like both, most of the time I just grabbed it from handle. I used to do this, but yet since this time I was using to see I'm doing more and more like winter.

Yeah. It's really interesting. And then when you land with the foil in the whitewater, Does that actually make the landing a little bit softer? Is it actually easier to land on whitewater? Is it hard because of the turbulence? Yeah. Yeah. True. So you can jump on a, fall on the shoulder and you're going to land on flat or even on the steep part is going to be tricky, but it's going to be hard yet for your knees and everything, but yeah.

Landing in the white water, it's much more softer, but afterwards also move a little bit. So like in this side of waves, it's okay. But more than this can be tricky to learn. Really. I don't know. Of course we're going to perform more and more, but more than this, for sure. It's going to be tricky to learn in a whitewater.

I don't think there will be lending like big areas, like 10 feet away is for sure not going to happen. I don't know. We'll see. It goes so fast. I'm really looking forward to see what's going to happen. Five years in the sport. Really. I'm really stoked to be part of it now. It's crazy. Yeah. Is this the same way that from the, with the GoPro max?

Yeah, it's exactly the same way, but just so from outside, this way you can have a, yeah.

That's super cool move in. And I think there was another one that I wanted to show where you're doing like a back flip on the wave as well. Whereas that one that's funny. I think. Yeah. It's fun. Yeah.

So doing all those freestyle moves on the wave and I guess that's like the whole, the next the next step right. Doing days ago. Yeah, you can go from back there and 360, but now I'm doing good this time. I was training now I learned my last post and then a good one. So for sure you can lend some front flips into the waves to probably double to build also seven 20.

Yeah. Awesome. I think you've already been attempting those right? The 17, seven 20. No, really. If I attempt was not made on purpose really. I have to really, I have to try seven 20, but as a thing, if you do a pre 62 high, most of the time you go turn over rotate and they never land seven 20, but I have to try it for sure.

Yeah. Th the. Let's talk a little bit about the backflip. I think the tricky part of the backflip is like when the wing, when you're kinda got the wing between you and the water, and this just looks like a really tricky spot to be in. But actually at this moment, if you have a good, Hey you okay?

Yeah, really? It's all about the Pope. Really? If you both, while you get the good hate and you just like, yeah, totally good. I got to Trumbull line. If you, at the end, when you see yourself pointing towards the sea and the wing in front of you, normally you're good. Really? There's nothing can happen. It's all about the beginning.

For me, I think so as long as you have enough height in this position, then you can pull out of it. But if, I guess if the water's underneath you at this point, then you basically fall onto the wing. Yeah. But it's happened to me many times for the first time.

So maybe walk us through it step by step. What do you like, I guess for the pop, like you're trying to get the anchor, the full angles up as steep as you can. And the takeoff. Yay. You have to get a good spirit. Not to agree, not to cross man having a good speed. Yeah. It's

like hard when you back. So you try to go hi, and you have to put your head in the back. I'm not doing really putting the, your eyes, like going back in the back. It's I think it helped for sure. And after, yeah, on this one I grew up myself, to make my myself like

maybe faster. Yeah. That's pretty much it after it was a tricky part also is to position the the wind. Like it's a bit hard, like to explain to everyone the main thing you to think, as a wing, like not. Into the wind, again, the wind, as you can see on the highest spot I am is a wing is just like in the middle.

Not taking much like the wind, the that's not against the wind. It's just in the middle. Yeah. And that was just the one above. Yeah. When I'm upside down exit wing. Yeah. I want to get back winded, but you also don't want the wing to pull you down towards the water, right? Yeah. And one other thing is give advisers it's much easier to learn, move some ways, for sure.

Like a good key here, like coming, just cross I don't know. You didn't, you don't need nothing. Just one fit normal coming against you. It's gonna help you so much. Really? Yeah. Just have a steep ramp to launch off of. It will for sure. Okay. So yeah, no, that's awesome. And then what about, is this the one for that?

I think so this is not the one, sorry. Yeah, so maybe walk us through that move. Like the Ford sort of, it looks a lot like windsurfing actually like doing a forward on windsurfing, but not the same though. I don't know. Maybe I'd done a long time ago, but I think it's totally different,

but I'm doing maybe winds of sight. The decision I had paid, cause it was a waste, but I don't think, and from it this way, I saw some old guys now doing it, like more like Trump line again, like throwing themselves in a, from and me I'm more using the wing to do it. So I think I have to learn how to do it, but this one looks great.

It's nice. It's just a bit tiring for your knee. So basically you, this one, you getting up, you try to go high first and then you spin sideways almost around the wing. It looks very great. Or w how do you think of, what do you think about when you're doing it? I really, I don't know.

I just learned like a week ago, this thing. Yeah, you have to turn the wing, like upside down, like towards the water, like super fast and keep pushing, pulling you back normally itself. I don't know. Really. I don't have much advice really. I didn't learn a lot yet, so I don't all the time, but I have to.

Yeah. It's super cool that you're pushing the limits. I think without, it's always easier to do something once you see somebody else doing it and then can figure out how they did it. But doing it for the first time is the hardest, the first point to learn it is always the hardest part, right?

Yeah. Especially for the, like the guys in Maui. And they were doing back flips since mom already, but because we didn't have any advice from anyone, it was really hard to learn it, same way, but now, yeah, I get it. Many guys go now in France. So I think going to go faster and faster, I don't know

for sure. Are kids now doing it too? The forage flips.

Yeah. Yeah. Not so much here on the wahoo, but I know on Maui, a lot of the guys who are doing the backflips now, the younger guys, so this is pretty good too. So using a kiteboard with the wind wing. Yeah. This is not something I'll for sure. And yeah, in France sometimes when that's in, look at where we had the competition to the wind is blowing like super strong sometime.

So yeah, this time I can use my cause he was like, I don't know, 40, not something. Yeah. I think I saw somewhere where your dog, like there was a longer version of it in your dog. Is that your dog chasing you on the beach? No. That's not even mine. A friend, maybe. I don't know,

but yeah, that was pretty cool. So in terms of, I know the F1 wings don't have windows. Like how do you feel about windows? Do you think it's that's always a question people have, do you need a window? Or like, how do you feel about having windows in the wings? Really depends if you go in a crowd or no, I don't use to go to play so much crowded, so I'm okay.

Without window. Yeah. It's the only time I told you before was when I'm using it in a way maybe. And I do like bottom turns and stuff like Windsor style. I cannot see inside the wings. So that can be a problem sometimes, but maybe it will come with some windows. I don't know.

Cool. Some amazing stuff you do and the waves are really impressive. So what do you see hap like for the future? What do you think will happen? What are your goals? What do you think is possible? What do you think the future holds for wing filings?

Maybe now I have a better ID, but in the beginning, like a few months after it came, I was thinking it was just a little thing, but not thing to grow at all. So I was totally wrong. Really. Now it's becoming such a big thing that companies are doing, like lots of work on it and focusing on a lot now.

And also it's really nice, but how I see it, I don't know for me. Yeah, for sure. I really like going in a ways. I think it's a really good time to go in a ways and have fun in a ways. For sure. Yeah. People want to also put the freestyle now that they're doing competition. So we have, it's much easier to do freestyle and racing event weather event.

So it's gonna push a freestyle again. Good thing. We, what we're going to learn in a freestyle and we can add it in a ways too. So it's going to be even more interesting. I think the wind serves are doing tricks in a way, so we'll come with this too. What else? Yeah, it was me. I want to know is just, yeah, I prefer going away.

I really want to do like videos in good places bringing in good ways. Around the world. I'm really looking forward to this. Yeah. So one of the tricky parts of winging in the ways is if you get caught inside of a big set and then a big whitewater is coming at you just cause the wing has, the wing just gets torn.

So pulled so hard by the waves. Have you ever like broken leashes and lost wings or blew up the wing and so on? Like how do you deal with that? Like when I went in bigger ways, I don't know why really. I had many sessions, but I never felt once in UK then. Yeah. So I was lucky. I was not like pushing too much at this time.

Maybe now if I'm going back, I will do maybe go deeper for sure. But yeah, I've been in such big west, but still I've been culturally smaller ones in other places, even here in France. And yeah, I broke a few leashes for sure. He broke some time. It's a nice things though. It doesn't like to touch your arms, which is nice, but yeah it's tricky if you're on your own and there's not much people around you, you can be in trouble when I'm in a new car going in big ways.

There's always boats taking care. If never something happened is always. I know friends with boats or is always going to be a solution, but yeah, if you're on your own, I know people like more shoes they go in and sometimes it publishes. And so when just go away in Madagascar or I don't know, so they have yet to swim back to the shore.

So yeah, sometimes it can be tricky. It's the same way when surf and as they broke a lot of gears, the waves, it's almost the same thing. Yeah. Yeah. It is. We were just talking about what the best solution is, because it's just, yeah, it's hard when you lose your wing. Sometimes I think it's maybe even better just to let the wing go when the big set comes.

And then try to turn the channel later, yeah. Depending on what size of where you were talking about the one, it was really big in your cow. I didn't put even a Wenglish. I was without really all the time. Cause it's not going to break anyway. So you'd better, like it better, doesn't have a leash that way the wing might not be broken by waiver.

There's a good chance of doing won't be broken if you don't have the leash. So it's nice. Yeah, sometime first you're not going to have a bullish. There's no sense. It's super dangerous. Yeah, but then yeah, you just have to be pretty pretty sure of yourself that you're not going to lose your gear. We're also talking about that maybe you could put, they have those apple air tags or whatever like a satellite locator thing that you could maybe put on your wing.

So if you lose it and it's like out in the ocean somewhere, you could find it, with, find your iPhone and look for your wing and then locate it like that. So later on you could go back with a boat and find it or something like that, I think that's I never heard about a thing where not so advanced,

I think you need cell phone service to make it work probably. Yeah.

Yeah, it's a second another idea, but I was wondering like you have some of your boards behind you, so if you could only have one board for all conditions, like including light, wind and so on, what would be the board you would have, maybe, can you show us your w the board you would choose if you only had one board?

Our hands, really? If suddenly I have to go in that maybe I'm gonna take this one, so four, eight, four, eight. Yeah. That's the one I use in super-light with 50 liters visiting. I can go, yeah, that's super light, maybe 12, 12 knots with a normal wing, like five. So yeah, that's the one I would take.

So how much do you weigh? I weighed 70. Okay. So a good volume for you and I'm sorry, what did you say about 50 liters or? Yeah, that's 50, but really that's only if I have to go like below 50 knots, I always using yeah. Around 35 liters. Normal, really? And then when you start, you put your, you put both your feet on the board already underwater and then get, let it pull you out.

Yeah. Yeah. I just sit standing up on the surf board with my knee bands and the water and I have my wings up and I just go out to water. Yeah. And you just need a good Gus to get you going. And then once, once you're out, it's fine. Yeah. Yeah. No, I think, I had a lot of questions like this.

A year ago, six months ago. But I think now, I see here many people using small boats and I think the same on how I were quite strong too. Now, pretty much everyone is using small boats. Yeah. It's pretty common to use smaller boards, but I still like using a board that almost floats me. I use I'm like 88 kilograms or something and I use a boy that's maybe 75.

That's yeah.

Okay. Around yet.

Yeah. Let's look at some of the ways. And is this in new Caledonia that this video, can you see it. Yeah. That was a long time ago. Yeah, that wasn't NewCo was one of the first time I was going to the reef. That was almost two years ago. Yeah. These two years ago. More than two years ago. Yeah. It's been a while.

Huh. Let me see, like there's some more recent ones. Yeah. I guess not much.

So pretty soon after they moved to France, basically. Yeah. I call often in UK. Not now, this was two years ago or a bit less now. And after this year after this, as you continue, but after this, I went back, just went when it started Yeah, that was the first time I was trying to Germany a year ago.

Nice. But it's really, you're the level of your whinging and the level of everybody's winging has progressed a lot in just one year. It's pretty amazing how much everybody's getting better at a really high rate. Can you give some pointers on landing big jumps?

Like how do you keep the landing soft when you do a big air?

If you're going like. Most of the time. Yeah. A few moments ago, I realized like it's much better to land on a tape all the time. So that's what I'm doing now. I just end up on a tailoring all the time first. And that's the only advice I can give out. Honestly, there's not much I can say about it before I was trying to learn, but it was like giving lots of pressure on me and everything, but I realized that tail was a bit easier.

Yeah. And I've seen some people trying to land with the nose slightly down. So the front wing goes in down at a downward angle a little bit. So it doesn't hit as hard, but then it's hard to pull off. It's hard to pull it off because just the board gets sucked down on onto the water.

Yeah. You can do this with small gems, but really once you start doing high, really, you can not do this again, really. So you on YouTube to watch videos on YouTube

and YouTube. Yeah.

That's the only station I filmed, but now that I'm listening, I'm more involved in this now. Next time. I have been much more of this administration and I only see him that one, but I want to go again. I'm just wanting movies now.

What's your, I think like foiling in steep waves is a whole different ball game. So do you have some, maybe some tips or pointers on, like controlling the foil on, on the steep fast wave? Again, can you repeat the question? Oh, just with the foil on a steep, fast moving wave it's just tricky to keep the, to control the foil.

So do you have any tips on how to, how you do that or any points? For me, it doesn't feel so tricky. Just depend on if you use the right size of a wing. I think it's okay. This is, this was writing a 500 centimeters square was pretty small, pretty good, small, thin fast wing, basically that you can use in the bigger waves.

It makes sense. Yeah. And yeah, it would be cool to see you write those ways this summer. So do you have any plans to go back to new Caledonia? Anytime soon. Not yet. Sadly some now with 15 days of quarantine where there's not much light, so yeah. Maybe I'm going to travel more. Some other places it looks like on this one you are wearing a leash or you said you weren't using any least a leash.

This time I was not. I was wearing. Yeah, because there was only one boat and not much people around. So the waves were not so big. So it was okay. But really when I had bigger condition, when this, and I was not using the wind and not using the leash,

big base, many people, and it's all my friends. So again, I know if I release my wing somehow, because of course, if I Excel because you're going to help me another thing, if I don't have a solution, I do a mistake. I don't know. I'm jive on attack and I release the wing. And third, like far away in a, in the channel can be a problem.

So when there's, when it's big and with lots of people is can help me, but there was no one out. So it was on my own. That's why I was using zoom. I'm just curious when you're coming out of the water after a good session. Are you having dinner too?

So when you come out of the water with your gear what is and people come up to you on the beach what is the most common question that people ask you. Like everywhere you mean? And every spot. Yeah, just like when you think that's like the most, most common questions that you get.

I had quite a few questions. Maybe the most, the question people ask me the most probably it's how do you get up on small boats? But there was like, I had many, and now less and less because people start to use these small boats too. Especially in the beginning two years ago, when I was using already at 25 ditches boats.

So many people were asking me, how do you get up on such small wars? And now I'm using what gear should be grateful. These of this condition. Yeah, they're still looking at the size and Maluma my boss, but not much question about like technique and stuff, because there's not much people sending even trying to do back flips and stuff like this, just stop jumping.

So yeah, yesterday I had someone else. Give me, take out, how can I jump a higher. What can I do? Yeah, of course, I'm going to give him tricks. It seems like the question I get a lot, like from people that don't know how to wing for help, they always ask like, how much is it? And they think that they can just buy the equipment and then do it.

But once they have the equipment yeah. That's from people that are not already writing, but I thought you asked me what people writing me, like question, but yeah, of course, random people or even, yeah, kite surfers when Sufism will know the prices, but yeah, random people walking in the beach there. They're all asking first.

What is the sport? How is it called? And yeah. How much does it cost? Is it hard to write? That's a pretty common question. I think. So this was another different event. That was just a teaser of the,

okay.

So I went there just to do a teaser for was crazy. The event was crazy strong again.

So what what is your favorite move? Do you have a favorite or just depends on the conditions and is there like one, a favorite move that you do now? I like back flips because it seems very easy. So it's nice to do two fro like a good one when there is a good waves in front of me. It's nice when it's like couple waves too.

It's to do what we saw a few times. They like to Jen facing the wave and landing again in the waves on whitewater is really great. Cause you can do it sometimes really high and give you like good sensation is same as when surfing. Like you have very good possession. People are doing tricks in the waves, but the tricks, I think the most is like big aerials.

So it's the same in wind falling. Okay, cool. Yeah. It's awesome stuff. You're doing. If you let's say you're stuck inside or, like during the pandemic, a lot of people were like quarantined or they couldn't get outside. And and a lot of people get feeling lonely or anxious and depressed and so on.

So when you're having a rough day and you can't get on the water, let's say what would you do to stay positive or keep a good outlook? If I have to say, if you're having a hard day, it's always easy to go in the water and have fun. And then that makes everything better.

But let's say you can't go in the water. So make it a little bit harder to answer the question. What do you do? I will try to work on something. Now I have to study, I can video or do some stuff like this. So I don't know to make my days better. Probably I'm going to watch some video of not athletes from the past like a few days ago I rewatch, I don't know the name.

Red bull TV on a one on one chapter. I don't remember the name, but he has, he made a good video with Jesse Richman CAHE and Robbie nation in Fiji. Yeah. I love to see those videos. It really inspired me. Yeah. Yeah. It's called chapter one. I think. Oh, cool. I have to watch that. Is that kite, a kite surfing video or skate, surfing video all around the world.

And there's is a big part in Fiji, some of hers in Indonesia. So yeah. Very nice film to watch.

Let's talk a little bit about your wings. Like your, the F1 wings, like how would you compare the original F1 swing to the new F1 strike? What are the differences and what do you like about it and so on. Okay. It's totally different. It's much more steeper. It goes much faster. It keeps his shape.

Even if you like pull out your back hand, even strong wind. So that's totally a different way. Like it's yeah, just more rigid. And the profile remains the same with even a lot of pressure on it. And it's still like very light, very easy to use. It's really a wing and much higher too, but that's also the GDT name.

And then I, like I saw during the, they have a new wing for racing too with an extra like an extra baffle in it or extra kind of almost like inflatable battens. Is that right? Yeah, I know how to pronounce it in English breeds trust. I think it's the same as the one in the middle of it's a smaller one, but it's not another wing.

It's also the try, but be a size from the six meters, three strips. Okay. Let me see if I can pull that up. So yeah, you had it before it's on video,

straight wing, but on the bigger sizes they have this extra extra thing here. So what is what does that do? What's the advantage of having that?

Cause. So when chip is always touching the water, if you put, if you make the wind bigger,

like maids may doing like super wide wingspan, so they had to put so fast on the court, and if you put a lot of code and not was trust was stretched and not going to keep a good shape. So we was three stretch is going to take, keep a good shape. I think this is a profile. The profile is much more like that better.

So you get less and less flutter and stuff probably too in the trailing edge. Yeah. Also sometimes in strong winds, turning edge can flap on those ones are not at all. So yeah. Who knows maybe is he gonna use it on the smallest size later? So let's talk a little bit about the foils. Are these the foils that you're using?

Yeah. Downright. Yeah. I'm using a nine 40 or is it

okay? Yeah, same chamber, much smaller. I know if they're online yet.

And and wood, what do you like about it? W why is it? Why does it work? You think it's a medium aspect ratio, so pretty a few brands are coming with this. Now

we still have a good glide ratio. You still have a good speed, which of course the smaller,

the weight, and also improving, not gonna have the same book because the aspect was a wing makes a good book too. If you have a high aspect, me, you're gonna have a better book in the lower aspect. So this is like a medium aspect wing. It looks like, right. Yeah, that's what I said. So I think

And then the, as like a nice curve to it, but then the tips are slightly turned up again. Do you find that helps when you, when the wing tip breaches and helps you help? When the Winship goes

to it doesn't catch much bubbles there in the main curve. It's too to have the full stable and maneuverable. Nice. And then the, is it the mass and the fuselage or one piece. Yeah, you can see it with the three screws. The connection between the mask also is two bucks. And then the tail wing. Do you ever do any shaming on the tailoring or do you just use it the way it is or whatever, but this one's already, not

that not so small too. And welcome. We have already like smaller sizes tailoring. Yeah. I'm using mesh smaller than these ones, right? She is the curve tailings or is yours more flat or what kind of shape is your, the one that actually the one I'm using now it's more curl will come with stone, like this much smaller.

And I think it's going to be better because you have better maneuverability and probably. Better speed too. Is there anyone that you would like to thank for supporting you over the years and in your career? Like anyone that's helped you or supported you? Probably my parents teach me how to, he teach me catcher, so he brings me into his sports and my mother taught me a lot in the beginning.

Buy me some gears now. Probably a fun. Cause they took me since beginning withdrew both together. So they helped me a lot in the beginning. And your, are your parents still in yukata? Caledonia? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. My parents are living Danza, gonna stay there forever for sure. And you're gonna keep going back there.

When do you think you'll ever end up living there again? Or do you like living in Europe better? I really like Europe yeah. Going on a night thing. I really like Ireland too. And was specifically for the condition. The thing is now there is a lot of people don't talk about it. Cause it's, as we talked about in the beginning, it's not a well-known place where there's a lot of sharks attack.

Now there's many people eaten by sharks every year, like more than in Australia, many places. So it's going to be a problem for specifically, for people that are going a lot in the world like me. So I will see. And for sure there is good play, good places. Be some nerves. Somewhere else. I haven't been to French refugees, so I have to visit more places to see if there's somewhere else again, I can say,

but now I'm not going to stay in France, for sure. Even if I really like space for all the things, but I don't have in islands. Have you been to the Canary islands or any other?

I haven't been to canneries. I've been to, I was in the Caribbean this winter too, really? I think I prefer still. I think we've had, I think we have better condition where it's not not also. I have all my friends were, their thing is much easier. Yeah. I think we have very good condition too.

Yeah, it looks pretty amazing. For this show about wing fighting, who else do you think I should interview? Are there any other good people or friends you have or people, that would be interesting to talk to for insights about when quilling you've been interviewing Zane bowels and who else

Yeah. Yeah, penny Riker for the athletes. Yeah, and a few other people, but yeah. W who else do you think would be good to talk to men and women? You already did, honey, any record I talked to then who, I don't know. I really want to heard about advice and tips from the Spencer boys, or it would be nice if you interview them.

Who else. I don't have much. Hi girls. Huh. Who is pushing in France? There's a girl who won here in in the cat. It's Olivia Kenna. Yeah, she's doing good. Who else? I don't know. Who is pushing along, talking to you there? Is there someone in their room with you?

You want to say hi she wouldn't be at and say hi on the video now. Okay. Heidi. Just telling me. Okay. So Olivia piano, Jeff Jeffrey. And

For sure. I would love to, to hear what Ty thinks about his fame, but I don't know. Yeah. He has time. He's pretty busy. Yeah, it's hard to get him be nasty if you can reach him. For sure. Yeah. Cool. Anything else you want to talk about? Usually like at the end of these videos, most people already left, but there's a few hardcore people that are full, crazy that they're still watching.

So do you have a special message for those people that are still watching after an hour and a half

to say, thank you to you. It's nice. But various people like you doing this thing for sure is going to interest. Many people are on a roll. And for me, it's nice. You're giving me a person who I'm going to hear because yeah, for sure. I really want to hear what a yeah. So I'm going to look at them for sure.

Next month. All right. Thank you very much to rich and to me for this. I'm really happy. Yeah. Thank you so much for your time. It's always fun to talk about wing foiling and I just find thinking about it and hearing other people give pointers. It's so helpful, when you get on the water and try something new, if you already have to do it again Jeff real  I really wish I had advice for backflips and many for the backups for mum.

I didn't try and match, but if I had only a few advice, like I did this video, you should go a lot faster and faster circles. Yeah. Loads of people are doing it and yeah, it's gonna spray many people are gonna do it soon for sure. Yeah, thanks for sharing your secrets. Now you're going to have more competition sometime.

Yeah. So you have some tricks up your sleeve that you that you're working on right now. Like new tricks that nobody's seen yet. No, I have to work on it. I haven't, no, I'm not pushing much, honestly. I've been almost always following. Yeah. I didn't learn by flick even the front flips. A few perfectly, but.

I came after his one who land one during the competition, the 360, it was probably bus or someone else doing it the first. So now I'm not pushing my freestyle anyway, that's I start liking more and more now, but in the beginning it was not really something I like really, for me, the wing goes in a way and that's it.

But now, yeah, cause I said, cause you can do tricks in a way. It make sense for me to also learn tricks and I don't see any yet doing, she'll be only this. So I helped competition going to be more and more in a way. Okay. So one more question. So when you think about like your skills, is it how much of it is just natural talent that you have, naturally talented for the sport and how much is it practice and thinking about it, visualizing, and then just time on the water.

We're practicing it.

You're asking me about me. Like how much of it is your talent and how much of it is practiced on the water. Okay. That's yeah, I don't want to be like, I don't want to say I'm good. I think I'm not working much like for trick. So I think it comes from talent. Interesting. Really? I just, now sometimes people see me and can look and try to understand.

Most of the time now, just on myself, I don't push much money, save myself doing many times and just do a few drinks in my session. So maybe it came from Thailand sometime

the video from 11, just in one day is a backlit for me to maybe a bit more for sure. Yeah. It's also all the experience he hasn't before that. And other sports and other things. And also he was the guy who were lending his brother and defray that keeps so for sure he had good advice from them.

So what Baltz Miller was saying, like a lot of times he like dreams about wing foiling, or he can't sleep at night and he's like thinking about it in his head a lot and stuff like that. Do you spend a lot of time thinking about weighing foiling or visualizing it in your head or? No,

but really I'm not thinking. I'm thinking of a lot of things. It was the thing, but really I'm not really, it depends if I had a really big condition, like a superstition, of course, I'm going to dream about it, but accommodation, even doing tricks and stuff. It's nice, but it doesn't give me like such

big waves, man. Yeah. All right. Thank you so much. This is really good interview. I appreciate your time. I have to get going too, but good luck with everything. I help you. Stay number one in the world. That's awesome. Just keep doing what you're doing and you're in spirit inspirational. So thank you for that.

All right. Okay. Have a good night. Aloha. Bye bye. All right, friends. Thank you for watching another full episode of the blue planet show. You made it all the way to the end. You're one of those elite few people that are crazy enough to watch the whole thing and just can't get enough of it just like me. So congratulations.

The show is made just for you. This show is brought to you by blue planet customers, just like you, who support our business. So if you enjoy this show, next time, you're ready to purchase some gear. Please check out blue planet surf.com and I'm sure we have great selection. Great quality, great value that we can offer to you.

And if you're watching this in the summer of 2021, please check out our video contest that we're running in June and July of 2021. Submit a video and have a chance to win the $2,000 grand prize. So check out the blue planet video contest. All right. So thanks again for watching. We have more shows coming up soon, Aloha, and I'll see you on the water.

Blue Planet Show- Talking Story with the Oahu Crew: Daniel, Jeff, Jason and Jed

Video voiceover of some recent wing foil drone footage by our local crew of wing foilers: Jason, Daniel, Jeff, Jed and Robert. The drone footage is from three different wing foil surfing sessions in May and June 2021 here on Oahu. This show is also available as a audio only podcast, just search for "Blue Planet Show" in your favorite podcast app, this one is Season 1, Episode #11

Show transcript:

Okay, welcome guys. I'm trying something new here on the blue planet show. We're going to play a video that this is video. I shot over the last couple of weeks with the drawn of my friends here on a wahoo, and we're going to watch it together and moderate it, or, do a little voiceover, talk about what's going on and try to give you some pointers and, beginner tips, more advanced tips, any kind of equipment tips we have.

And then the conditions are pretty similar and all that is three different days, but the conditions are always like between, I would say between 10 to 20 knots about, it's pretty some lighter moments probably, but pretty decent win on those days. I'm gonna introduce myself first and then we'll go around everybody.

Just introduce yourself. So my name is Robert Stellick and one thing I love about wing foiling is this the community like people are so welcoming and friendly. I love that. Hi, my name's Jason. One thing I love about wind foiling is having that freedom and not being able to paddle back to the lineup.

So that's one thing I enjoy. Hi, my name is Daniel calling today. One thing I like about when foiling is I'm sharing it with a bunch of friends, all in the water and running away from the crowd and keep, we keep pushing each other every single day.

Yeah. Two things I love about waiting for them. So I like going in and out of the surf riding waves. And then I also like trying new things and. That's what I like about our group is everyone's always trying new tricks and things and makes it interesting. So those are the two things I like. Nice Jed, Aloha.

I am Jed. And what I love about winning foiling is zipping around when the prone for alert or prone surfers are just sitting there waiting for waves. When we can actually see the waves and just stay on foil the whole time. It's just the best feeling. Yeah, it is an awesome January.

So now, okay. So this is the first day out of three sessions that I was filming with the drawn. And I'm going to start with Daniel. Who's writing right here.

Can you tell us what gear are you using first? Right now I'm using a four, four. Magic foil board from Glen Pang who shaves platonic country. And I'm on a 72 centimeter mass Armstrong where the 10 50 front wing and a flat tail wing in the back with a 50 fuse and zipper, shim and Armstrong, a foil Abe before a wing four or five wing, right?

Four or five. Yeah, 4.5. And this is one of your signature moves at the bet going back winded. Yeah, sometimes I been practicing it too. Like going back winning, like even when the wave is like breaking or steep, just to cooking like faster. To just to get in even in the pocket, like really quick.

It seems like it's also a good way sometimes to turnaround without getting like sometimes when you drive, it's easy to get back winded. If the wind is light. Yeah. Then by pulling in you're by shooting in the wing, you don't get that back winded. Yeah. So

Off and on little bits, little small, but

good practice. Jump board is actually a 36 Dieter board. So it's small. It's almost like my prom board, maybe just a tad bit, little more volume, like two inches, two, two more liters of volume. Okay. So it's not your prom board for prime surfing, use a different board. I use a 33 liter board.

How do you like that? When Daniel at? I like it. It's really powerful. Like I tried ozone ANSYS. What else did I try a wing ride, but I really like this and the handles is rigid and I felt that was important, like before anybody came out with rigid handles. And as I talked to Robert recently, like Robert says that he likes his handles rigid also.

So I think a lot of the company's been coming out with these rigid handles. And I like it cause it's like it's super strong and then there's two different bladders two pumps. So the. The boom. And then the leading edge,

I have the Cabrina acts two and those handles are a little bit floppy. Some people don't mind it, but I don't prefer that. I actually prefer the boom. So I started on the echo and and now I've got one of the slicks, which are pretty nice. Nice. Jeff you, that was just you on the video, but you just got the new echo on the new Ansis V2, or then the new newest model. Yeah. So I was writing the original ANSYS wing and then I recently a couple of days ago, I got the new score wing. So the, we put it on top of each other and they look exactly the same. So we didn't think there's going to be much difference, but there is quite a bit of different.

So it feels. Yeah, although it's heavier, like a few answers heavier because of the windows, it's actually has a lighter feel. So when you're lifted off the water, when you're water starting it pops off the water instantly, and then it feels tighter in your hands. Everything is similar to the F1 where they tightened everything up.

It feels more responsive and more lively. And especially when you're riding the wave, when you go to Lafitte in the back, it just, you just throw it back there. And instead he just is in perfect position, like the first instance in a lot of the other wings you have to, when you throw it back there, you have to adjust it.

Sometimes it wants to do the front legs, but this one, you throw it back in it's level. Perfect. And it's pretty much effortless. So it's a big improvement. Over the other one, I think. And so he basically tightened up the leech and then he flattened the profile. So it's faster through the air, those are the two changes you mean?

And then the Leo is on that dark wing yet. It looks, I get that one has so much vianet like it just looks, it looks strange to me that, that dark wing, but I think good part of it is this kind of has a pointy tip too, right? Yeah. I think the design of that was not really intended for wages more for jumping and tricks and back loops in front loops and that kind of thing.

And getting here is when you put it on a wave, it wiggles a little bit. That's what the Leo said too, that it it's really good for jumping and then. Ears Corey both Corey and Jason. You are both on the, on a wings too. And Jason, you've been through a lot of different wings. You've tried a lot of different wings.

So what do you like about the Armstrong that over the other ones you've tried? I think my favorite thing about the Armstrong is the power that you get and how stiff it is. That day, I believe I was using a five, five, and Cody was on a four or five, eight week. And yeah, also like it for jumping as well, too, and it parts really well when you're actually on the wave and the wingtips are shorter, so it doesn't touch the, like the water surface as much.

Even with the five, five I don't really have that much problems actually touching the water surface. So that's the reason why I like that rain and. It's it's, so beef felt like the materials and everything that they put into it. That's probably like one of the best ones that I prep for me for my preference.

I like it. Yeah. I tried it too. And what I found that, those, the thing the wingtips are really thick. And even if you do touch down with it, it just seems like they just released really easily. Yeah. It just feels like it just ricochets off the water, which, you know, like calling me and I actually found out but it's a little heavy, but one thing that I do like about it as well too, is the windows.

Like most brands you get out there and they don't, you're not able to fold the windows or creases where this one, you can actually fold it, which actually like my wife and I, as soon as we're done, we're just crinkle it up and just throw in the bag and, not. Having a tear and, rip this kinda on what we're looking forward to.

Cause we're not like, as you see, it's like my wing hanging on the hook over here. I know Jeff is looking at it or probably is they'll do that. But yeah, that's something I like about the Archstone stuff. It's built that a lot of thought into it.

And so you were on a five, five and Daniel was on a four or five. So there's quite a bit of difference in power, right? Between the four or five and the five five, or would you say? Yeah. I think I used a five-pack business kind of like holiday clinic umbrellas. You don't like, I've been getting inspired by you.

Jeff and Daniel of course was the leader in the jumping category right now. But I found like this one kind of locks you down, like umbrellas you down a lot more. So it makes it easier on the knees. So that's why I like having a bigger pile and then also like getting the speed and kind of powers you up really nice.

It's easier to get going out when the wind's a little bit light. Yeah. Yeah. Cause I fall a lot, so I want something to get me up easy too, because I'm used to such a small board, like Daniel, I'm using a four, four, and it's 22 wide and it's like 45 liters and I'm on a Armstrong, 1250 and it's modified.

I lost a little bit with not too much forward, but I've been experimenting with my wings as well, too, but awesome. How did you modify the 1250. So what I did was at con I had a belt sander, and I shaved off the wing tips. I felt like it was biting too much.

Like it was tracking lot. Cause I like to actually I want more of that prone feeling like when you're out in the surf. So I wanted something that actually would release like more from left to right when I'm doing like turns I wanted that real juicy feeding. And I felt cutting the wing tips down and I got a flying detail from Jeff, which actually I just love, nothing is just unreal.

So that was Corey Jason's wife. We just did a jump. That was nice job. Nice car. So jumping pretty high nowadays, so worry is too shy to be on the camera. So she's like just listening, huh? Then I feel like I got a good combination, with me kinda modifying the wind. I got it to where did you, how did you modify the tailing?

So I actually I took off the Wingnuts. I felt like that was tracking a lot, so I took off the Wingnuts and it made it more lively, more, it feels like it gets more responsive. What about you, Danielle were telling, are you using on your arm chunk? Set up I'm using the retail also the flying V with the.

Tips on there. So just like stock and I feel it works really good, but I also use this modified towing. It's a 12 inch flat towing and it feels real like loose and real like surfy feeling. So I kinda like that. That's the one that Nico made you the totally flat. Yeah. So my Nico made down. Yeah.

And it's really surfy can turn pretty much on a dime, but you need to really control it. Cause it, it can slide out because it's small and flat, but it's really Carvey. What do you think does your, I think you said, but what length is your fuselage? My fuse is a 50 fuse and I'm using the 72 Centimeter mass, which is the 20, but using the same set up for wing foiling and for profiling and for pro.

And that's pretty much all I use is this the whole same setup for winging and proning, and that's my favorite setup, like all around. Oh yeah. This is Derek. People always ask about that. Like he has this long leash line attached to, into his wing and this kind of lets it out and flies away above, which is pretty cool.

But yeah, he couldn't make it ease at home Depot, but but yeah. Derek always comes up with cool new stuff and try not things and being creative, but that's probably the reason why he's probably at home Depot is probably trying to figure out something. Maybe I think he might actually be working cause he's like winging all day long.

So he has to work at night, get some work. But Jeff talk a little bit about your board and I know you're like you went from a big board to a smaller board and then back up to slightly more volume again, right? Yeah. In the learning, we went all the way from down to, from bigger boards. Like I think we started out 80 9,000 and then I went down to a 55 and I rode that for six or eight months.

And then it's accustomed Jimmy Lewis. So it's four, six 2255. And then. Winter came and we're up at sailing, the North shore, where the waves are really big and fast and the wind is fluky. So you have to start really quickly. A lot of times before the sets coming in, that little board was sometimes hard to start right away.

So I had Jimmy make me a, another bigger one 65 liters. So it's four, 10 23 and a half 65. And now once it feels really comfortable, it starts really quick. And it, I don't really feel the performance has gone down at all from the 55 liter board. But the starting in, when you need to start is really critical.

If I, if the wind dies, I still sink all the way up to my thighs. But as long as there's a little wind, you can keep going. And it's a lot more comfortable than that little board. So I'm pretty happy with that one now. Yeah. I definitely like having a boy that keeps keeps me more at the surface of the water instead of sinking weight, starting way underwater.

But Jason and Daniel, you both ride really small boards. So what's the reason? What, why, why do you take that compromise and just deal with the starting and light when sometimes and yeah, just why do you use the tiny boards? I been changing it up, so I bring two Wars now I bring my 36 neater board, the smaller like prom board for stronger winds and.

I look at, I assess the conditions when I get there. And if it's spotty like off and on, then I'll pull out my bigger port, which is a 54 liter board. And the reason being like, if there's waves, I'd rather be on my smaller board because it's more surfy compared to the bigger boys, like a big long board, but learning five liters for most people is still pretty small, but yeah, it is, it feels very yeah, it just feels like a tank, but if you look at the good guys around the world ridiculous, like balls smaller and his partner he always brings with it. There's a bunch of guys, but when they practice in the lakes, they're not using small prone boards, they're using ticker boards.

And the reason being is because when you do the tricks at those bigger boards, instead of landing, when you land, you won't sink, you can stay up on the water and still go, especially on the lighter wind conditions. So I've been just figuring it out and assessing the conditions, see what the wind is doing.

If it's strong and there's waves. Then I'll, I'll pull out my small board and go for jumps and surf the waves and practice, whatever tricks I've been practicing. And then my bigger board, like I'll go on the lighter wind days and practice everything that I do with my small board on the stronger wind days.

But just through my bigger board. Yeah. Makes sense. Yeah I reached just recently started pulling off the flock as, and I think in that move, especially cause you landed flat and you stop and then you restart. That's where I think having a higher volume board really helps a lot.

I think keep keeps you on the water, keep you from sinking. It's more likely that you'll pull it off, pull out of it, and you can use a smaller wing, too many, have a bigger board. And so when you're trying to it's easier with that small wing to try and flip it around. Yeah, Robert died like the last few days we've been trying to take out the tiny wings, the wings light.

Cause it's easy to just flip the wing all the way around. If it's smaller, it's a lot easier to try to pull off those kind of tricks. Yeah. Having a smaller wing. I always try to use the smallest swing I can because just cause it's so much easier to handle and stuff like that. And I think I'd almost rather have a smaller wing than a smaller board, but I guess it depends having a small, lightweight board is nice too, especially for jumping and spinning and that kind of stuff.

It's nice to have a smaller board and turning on the wave carving. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. I think Daniel hit it right on the money when it comes to assessing the conditions myself too. I'm the same way. When, if the winds are like cranking, then I'll bring out a smaller board.

But one thing I made sure, like all my boards actually have inserts so that I don't go out with without my strap. So every board actually has straps now. And then of course, when it's lighter than I'll bring up my 45 meter board and my prone board is only like 34 and a half. And that's the only thing now too, is when I go out, I make sure I have the right when of course I, when I bring all my small Chrome board I tend to use my bigger wings just so that I can get a bottle of water quicker.

And then when I ride my lighter or my bigger board, then I'll bring in a smaller rain. Like you folks, you try to get the smallest swing because when you're trying to do all these tricks, you want less materials and weight. So yeah, I totally agree with. Martin maneuverability, everybody's saying the smallest marrying and assessing the conditions for sure.

Yeah. Hey, Robert, I made for the mere mortals here. This is a jet Dietrich. I'm actually from Buffalo, New York. So I was out in Hawaii with you just to give them some background. And you've got some video of me later in the show here. I appreciate you having me on, but I'm like a hundred kilograms, about 220 pounds, six foot five.

And I come from a wind surfing background and then coding and then code foiling, kite surfing. And I think if you don't live in Hawaii having a bigger board and having more stability can lead to foiling more and really having more fun. So again, I don't, I respect everything that you guys said and your skillset but your physical bodies are different than my size.

And I know you're a big guy Roberts I think some people might be watching this saying, I can't see myself ever on a 45 or 55 liter board. I think the enjoyment of getting up on the foil and then. Surfing through smaller waves with a bigger board can still be just as much fun for folks that just aren't on the same level as you guys, and you guys are all on such a high level that it's, it's amazingly impressive, but I think for the standard folks out there who are just getting into foiling, I think the bigger boards with more stability, more width, a bigger front wing help a lot.

A hundred percent agree, judge. Yeah. And by the way, thanks for joining us from the East coast. I think it's 3:00 AM for you. And it's 9:00 PM for us in Hawaii. So we're just a little bit after dinner and you had to wake up in the middle of the night to join us. So appreciate that. I appreciate you bringing me in on it.

I was in Hawaii for two weeks just a couple of days ago and I met you obviously, and I got one of your Carver foil boards, 114 liters. And I was using that. I brought my hand wings and I'm on an Armstrong set up. I've got a 2,400 front wing and a 300 back wing, 72 centimeter mass.

So I've got the big guy set up and I think that. The criticism of that setup is it's not as tourney. You can't make maneuvers. It's not as loose, but frankly for someone my size and at my skill level I'm having a great time. So I know I can go down like you guys to smaller things like the two 32 HS, which I have, and I've got an 1850 HS, a front wing again, Armstrong stuff, and those are great.

But if it's 10 to 20 or 10 to 15 and I can't get on foil, I just think about Rob our Greg Knoll and riding giants, man, if you can't catch the wave, it means nothing. So if you can't get on foil, you're not having fun. So I go with the bigger gear and maybe I can't turn as much. My skill level continues to go up with the experience, getting the mileage on the water, and then I'll go down to smaller stuff.

Just the way you guys have gone. Even from a hundred liters down to 55 liters. Yeah. And yeah, it's starting on a big wing. Totally makes sense. A big foil because it just allows you to start in lighter winds. You'd need less speed to get it going. And then also in a jive or in a transition, you just have way more time.

Because even if we slowed down a little bit, you can still recover. So pull out of it with the big foil. Yeah. And then I would definitely say like when you're starting out, don't want to start on a small foil or small, thin foil that's definitely something you want to leave for later a little bit better.

What I find interesting too, just wanted to mention is for us here on a wall, it seems like all, almost all of us in this crew. I think maybe except for Jeff, we always keep our feet in the same stance we got, we all have foot straps. You have pretty small boards. When I see videos of other places, people either don't have foot straps or they have three foot straps and they always switch feet and they have bigger boys, wider boards.

And then they all always have bottom handles, which we don't, none of us has the handle on the bottom really. Like things like that. It's interesting how, yeah. As it's like different people see different things as important or not important, just from what everybody else is using around them.

I think so that, how is it in Buffalo? What kind of equipment are people using on the Lake there? As I mentioned before we started, we actually have a pretty good spot for kite surfing, wind surfing, because Buffalo is connected to Lake Erie and about 20 miles South of Lake Ontario.

And we can go, I've got about 40 different venues within. Between 45 minutes and an hour near my office, I'm actually lawyer in Buffalo. I can get to a spot about 20 minutes away. So today actually went there about 20 minutes away from my office that worked until about two and there wasn't any wind.

And there was a little thermal that came in on the Niagara river. And in that scenario, when you're looking at eight miles an hour or two 15 or 16, I do not want to be slogging around. And like a 90 meter board, I've got a 90 liter, six, four starboard twenty-five inch hyper foil board, which just makes life so much harder for me.

So what I prefer actually is the Jimmy Lewis it's 114 liters. It's a flying B, which is a really nice board. It's, it will flog for me, decently. And again, I'm speaking Windsor for language, but I think that's the language that goes with the wing foiling, because the crossover with the the muscle memory from the wind surfing is just, I've been wind surfing like 15 years.

I, I wouldn't surf, but I started one surfing about 10 years old for in about 1980, 79. And then I call you in about Oh six and for 15 years or whatever, 12 years. And then this past year I switched over. And the comparison between closing the gap with a wing foil A sail and a wind surfer. I think it's just so similar.

I'm probably speaking language that any of the one surfers, any of these guys here for windsurfers and that's the way it goes. So in Buffalo, the gear is a little bit bigger, although we've got some pretty, pretty avid people. I got a good friend of mine who goes down to Jupiter, Florida, and he gets it probably 50 or 60 days in the ocean, down in Florida.

So he is going towards smaller gear and the waves are bigger. There, we get more Flatwater I'm working on a four-lane tax and things like that, just because we don't have as much wave action. So that's why when I was in Hawaii is such a great time. So Danny, you want to tell the story that you told earlier about that?

What happened at that spot today? Oh, so it was it was like four or five of us out. And so we're winging and we're going in and out for an hour or so. And then we come to the inside reef where we jive or tack to go back out and we turn right by the grief. And our friend, Todd Bradley says, diode has a big shark.

And I was like, what? He was like, yeah, it's eight feet just went on the road. And I'm like on my little prom board. And I'm like, Oh my God should I just leave and go in cause I'm on the inside already. Like just dig out. But I seen there was like four more people out there and one of them was like, Jason's wife, Cody.

And there was like, Nani is girl naughty. And then there's this other kid Ghana. And as a young kid, so I just the screaming at everybody as a shark. And so first thing, Cody is gone and then I told Naya and she was gone. And then the other kid was like, what? Really? Really? And I was like, we're out of here.

And he was like, okay, let's go ahead. So we all dug out and went in, but we got to shore and then some other guys just pumping up and then we told them and some of them, a couple of them went out like kid count and went back out. And one of the guys in this video, like Lindale, he was like, ah, I'm just gonna leave it.

But. Leave it for the locals to have their lunch out there. And I was like, Oh, okay. And so Todd said the shark was huge, like eight feet tiger going underneath. And so that's where we fall is like right inside there all the time, because that light yeah. Like checking out the foils too. They think it might be a, yeah, I'm not sure it's scary.

And I got a big gash on my foot from the floor wasn't because of me like, like a lot of blood, but I don't think so. It's pretty nuts. Yeah. Pretty crazy. I wish I had a bigger board. I could stay on the board, but like again, like when Jared was talking about his 90 liter board and whatnot, I think for like guys that do it in the Lake, their boys need to be thicker than the guys here, like in Hawaii.

Because again, I think the saltwater and freshwater is different. Like when I used to go surfing in California, I took my regular board from Hawaii up and I'm like, Oh my God, I can't even surf. I can't even stand on this board. It's sinking. So you, with the California water, mainland water, you sink a lot.

Whereas like here in Hawaii, we can go with the less, that small leaderboard. So everybody in the world that chip, like, how do you as ride that thing? You know this because our water, like the salt water, it has more flotation. Yeah. That's the thing. And I don't think people would understand that until you come here, you can feel it right.

Jet. Oh, yeah, I just, I, Kahala is a great spot.  I've been watching your videos Robert for again last eight months or so. Cause when I started, I got a link foil set up about eight months ago and I just went all in and lock, watching these videos and I see the third column and I emailed you and said, where are you at?

So when I first got to wide a couple of weeks ago, when I showed up, I think I met Daniel the first day and he was super friendly, total low hobble hallway gave me a cell phone number and these texts me every morning okay, we're going to go out. You got a great spot and then the one that you said we were going over to to diamond head and that's actually where I think I'm in some of this video around 33 minutes.

And that was just  a great experience over time and had that nice wind over there and good waves. Yeah. And that here's non-issue she was also out at Diamond had with you guys, but I'm pretty impressed by nanny. I guess she could kite surf before she started waiting for them, but Daniel, you helped her to teach her right wing foiling.

I did from boiling to whinging and she pretty much learned to wing for on a pretty small board. She never really started on a big board, right? No, he hated the big boards and so like she had a small Armstrong board that she bought from a friend and I let her use one of my wings, which is a four meter also.

And surprisingly, that will never, Paul never had bladder issues. It's pretty solid, but she's been using that and she pretty much, it's taken off like we got a, like a good group of girls at Kahala. That's pretty much ripping Nani and Cody, and then talk these coming over from Kyla now and she's ripping.

That's the three girls that's just going to be pushing each other. I don't see any other girls on this Island as good as probably Cody and talk these coming up and Nani is just, she finally got footsteps today Oh yeah. So you know how she does with the jumping, but yeah.

They're going yeah. And something I for, yeah, something I wanted to just mention to women too. Sometimes women think that you need a lot of upper body strength and whatever that they're disadvantaged, but it's really more about Finessin. And I think a lot of times, if anything, women are probably more, more balanced and coordinated than guys in a lot of ways, it's like for her to be able to do this already after only two months or whatever is pretty impressive.

Yeah. Yeah, totally agree. I got to say watching, like the ones who get really good, the ones who want it, they put the time on, in the water and there's not one hour and then go in, they're all out there. Like Cody, I watch her and she's out there like three, four hours and probably more than anybody else.

I know. She'll probably do two hours go in and her and Jason we'll have launch in and drink and rest and then go right back out. That's the only way you get better as the more time you put in it. Unfortunately, some of us got to work. Sorry, you guys. But I see quality today like launching off with some waves going pretty high with her jumps and I never see.

A girl, do that maybe like in Mali or like on Instagram, but live. I was like, Oh, pretty impressive. She's jumping pretty high from Flatwater to jumping off waves. She getting pretty high and I was like, wow, she's getting good. Yep. Awesome. Yeah. Yeah. That's fun. We'll see, we don't have any women that are winning in Buffalo.

I was trying to get my daughters to do it today, but they weren't buying it. Yeah, this is a diamond head. So that's, I've got that Cabrina right there. That's you right there, dead handling. And that's got the floppy handles, but I put an Armstrong bar between it, which tighten it up a little bit.

But if you said, is that my favorite program? I would say probably not just because it's just a little bit loose. But the handles have a rigid part in the middle, right? So they stiff in the middle, but then the connection between the strap and the handle itself is that's where the looseness comes from.

Or I've never tried it too long handles. That's a Cabrina X too. It's got a long handle. It's about, I don't know, 14 inches in the front and just two little webbing straps holding it in. And then there's a separated area about four inches and another one. So what I did is far apart. Yeah. I took the Armstrong bar though and put it between the two to try to tighten it up, which helped a little bit, but still, I don't think it's the optimal arrangement.

I actually really liked the the slick situation with the mini boom. I would really rather have more stability is stiffer program. I know it's not as good to flag out that's for sure. But for like for link tax and pumping up onto the wave or getting foiling I liked that. But I'm getting more into the wave stuff, so I'll be back in wine in a couple of weeks.

So we'll see how the, how I can get that to work. Yeah. Jeremy and I tried to prototype of this slick and obviously as a windsurfer, I love having that rigid boom, but I did find that too. Like when you love it, it doesn't like the profile, doesn't it doesn't love very well. It stays rigid as it has this really rigid, stiff profile.

So even when you love it, it's like a really thick kind of heavy wing and it doesn't really. Totally deep power, right? It doesn't feel, it still feels like it has pull on it even when it's left at somehow. Is that how you feel about it too? Yeah, no I do feel that way and again, everything's a give and take.

So for my situation, because I, we do get waves, but it's gotta be super windy. The wind driven waves. They don't have a lot of push behind them. Like Ontario, they're a little better than Lake Erie, but in general, I just don't have sets coming through like you folks do. So the majority of the time, 80% of the time, let's say I would rather have better low end stiffer, better to come around on a foiling tack everything's stable versus a lighter type scenario.

But I would be interested in knowing which one, which w handling do you guys think flags out the vest, which one floats behind you? The best guys. For me, it's hard to say. I tried a lot of different wings and some of my, you always have a compromising, a lot of people think, Oh, I just need this wing or I need that equipment and this and that.

But a lot of times I think the current generation of wings are all pretty good. It's not like that. There's some, I don't think any of the bigger brand name wings or there's any bad ones really. It's just, they have different things that they're good at and different things. You're not as good at, for us riding waves. Yeah. We like weighing that handles really well. Bluffing and yeah, I don't know. I think all the ones we use are more oriented towards that. The ozone Armstrong, the PPC wing that I'm using and the ANSYS, I don't know which one do you think is the best?

Jeff, you've tried it a lot. I think I agree with you. There are really good, except just recently using that instance, score that one kind of stands out now just because it just getting it into that position is so quick and easy. Like when I was using the first instance wing, sometimes when I put it back, it would dip and flip over, and then you've got to flip it back, but this one, you push it back there and it just instantly goes into the perfect spot.

And it feels effortless. So that's so far, that's the best one I felt in terms of getting it back there for flagging, it just stays there. It doesn't, you don't even really know it's there. And you can like that one in the F1. You can actually let go of it and just hold it by the leash. I guess they call it walking the dog.

And it'll just park up there without even holding the handle. I think. For me, those are the best two ones I found. Especially that new instance, I'm really liking that one. Yeah. And that's, I think that happens with a lot of wings, especially if you're going fast and a little bit Upland on the going up, went on the wave.

If you let go of it, sometimes it still has kind of power in it and then tends to want to. Yeah, like you said, like the leading edge wants to dip down. And you almost have to force it into neutral. So yeah, that's cool. That's good. Yeah. Like a lot of the wings I'd have to let it go back in and pull it forward to the airfield under it.

So then the front would indep, he had to do that backward forward thing, but this one, you just throw it back there and it's. Instantly. Perfect. It's pretty good. I was talking to Eddie and he said that the PPC wing, which kind of has a real nice neutral handle handling and it's stays level by itself.

But he was saying he was having a hard time tacking it because when he puts it over his head, it just flies level and it's harder to make it switch from one side to the other side, so I was telling him me, I push it over in the tack, so it goes push it over to the other side.

So it doesn't get parked in that flat position, because once it's in that flat position, it's really hard to get it back out of it. Yeah. I thought that PPC wing was really nice actually as well balanced if we really well. Yeah, like you said, they're all really good now this second generation of wings.

Yeah. They're all, duotone the other dual tones. They definitely like the first wing for that. I had. I had to pretty much always hold the handle because if I held the front handle, it would just start flip-flopping and then just flip over on the wave. So that was like a totally different style of whinging, but it's still worked.

It's not like it was terrible and now it actually was really good for tacking because it would just talk over by itself. Almost. I get had so much V in it that it just wanted to flip over from one side to the other by itself. You didn't have to push it at all. It just did it by itself.

So how long ago do you think that was, that you were still riding that thing? It wasn't that long ago, right? A year ago. Yeah. Last year. Last summer, I think is when I got the echo. Yeah, last summer. And then when did you start writing the PPC. The PPC. I got the first one in early this year, I think.

Yeah. 2021. Yeah. Just within a year, it's your sailing has evolved a lot, from holding the front of the Deuteron until now. You're doing a lot of things differently, the PPC, and then you're trying to fuck us in all that. Yeah. Definitely having a wing that handles well, it makes a difference, especially if you get, if you're getting more advanced, but I would say for a lot of people don't obsess over having the perfect gear because it's more about the time on the water and get practicing and and just getting used to it and making, making the most of it.

Every everything's gonna have some pluses and some minuses, like it's hard to have everything in one wing, like a wing that's better in the ways might not be as powerful or might not go upwind as well or whatever for Flatwater and so on. I think that's where a wing, like the That do a ton.

Slick is a really good Flatwater wing, as powerful as compact. It's good for like kind of Flatwater going back and forth and going fast and stuff, but maybe not as good in the waves, and I think that's where duotone, they have that slick for those kinds of conditions. And then they have an echo, which is more of a wave riding wing, that's what Ken, when they said that he designed the echo more as, and not the echo what's it called?

The other one. Jason, you had that one, the unit right. Unit and unit is more of a wave wing right now. Yeah. I think Jed hit it on the head. If you're not having fun, if your equipment's holding you back from having fun, then it's not happening. So that's the primary thing. In terms of buying equipment, you got to buy what's right for you where you sell and be realistic.

So that you're on well, Elena was seeing and. You actually having, that's what it's all about having fun. Yeah, I, I had a friend actually here in Buffalo. I started on a gold foil. Malico two 80, because again, I'm like 220 pounds, 65. I'm athletic and I'm fit, but I wanted to make it as easy as possible.

And I got out of that thing. And the first day I went out, I was spoiling going back and forth. It was almost spoiling through terms the first day on that Melisko two 80 and a friend of mine, who's actually a very competent, tight forward. Excellent. Tight foiler he was on Moses type foil equipment.

He went like right to the 99 liter Armstrong with an 1850 HS. And he farted around in the water and got dragged and he didn't have a good experience at all. It took him probably four months where I pretty much got right on. And I would say our skillsets were very similar, but he didn't start with big enough gear.

And I think it wasn't as much fun now he's doing pretty good, but he like, he went to that detail right away and I don't think he should have gone to it because he was out the other day and he couldn't get up on foil and the VTL doesn't have as much squirt surface area. So if you're pumping, it's not going to pump as well as the 300.

So I think you really got to look at your conditions for sure. Yeah, that's a good point. I think you shouldn't worry too much as a beginner about buying the advance. Like a lot of people are like, Oh, I don't want to outgrow my gear too quickly. So I'm going to get more advanced stuff. And then, but like you said, like a lot of times it just leads to struggling, but on the other end, there's those people like Nani who's started on a small board and got some good instructions from Daniel, but, she never really had to use a bigger board, so she figured it out right away from the start on a small board with the smaller foil. So that's pretty impressive. But she also has a background in kiting and watersports background. Yeah. Yeah. She's been cutting. I dunno for how many years?

Probably like 10 years or so, and now she don't even do it anymore. She just wings I'm like, so Danielle. When you first started the thing, like I remember going out and Kyla with you and a few other guys that were just starting and that we were practicing on the beach and stuff like that. And you had this huge stand-up paddle board that was a seven, seven, eight like a standup paddle board with a foil box in it.

And I did drag the thing what is that from like the clay area all the way back up to the boat round, probably like a mile over a mile. And I had a lift wing, which is like a lift 200 surf. And that thing couldn't lift that thing at all with a four meter way. And I'm like, so what you guys was just talking about, I think you got to go big or like they say go home because it's not going to happen.

So everybody who starts, I like. Go big. And they're like, no, Nope, go big everything. Big foil, big board, big wing. And that's the easiest way for you to pretty much get up on four and you learn faster. Yeah. Yeah. So like it took me one month because I went live 200 surf wing, four meter ozone wing and a seven, eight board.

And that's not a good combination. It took me one month to get on flow, which I was about to quit. I was going to quit. I was telling Jason and my other friend, David, and they were like, don't quit. And I was like, ah, I think I'm going to quit. And sure enough, our other friend, David, he quit

in Florida. We stuck it all in. We're still doing it because. Just us being together, like with Robert and Jeff and Derek and, Todd and all these other handful of guys that we win-win. We just, now we just pushing each other, we just stick it out and just try to progress.

Yeah. No, it's definitely fun to go out with friends because yeah. Like whenever we go out together, we push each other and stuff like that. Yeah. But then sometimes actually I find that I actually have really good sessions when I don't have that pressure to like, when there's no one outside, I'm just by myself and nobody's watching then for some reason I wing better when they don't have that pressure of trying to and show off or whatever, and then th there was another guy in this video. The guy, Danny Samante, he had an orange F1, but he's been really doing really good too. And he's like in his fifties and he's. He's been coming along like really well, like tacking and jumping. Like he's just so into winging now. Like he's hot. That's all he wants to do is just wig.

Like I barely even see him stand up for her anymore. And he's a really good stand-up foil. He's a legend. Like he started like before me, like Stan, like foiling, I asked him about it back in the day and it was hard. And he said, no, it's easy. I was like, okay. I think I better try it. But yeah, he's got really good.

Like he's bossing like airs off waves too, like going high. So he loves jumping. Yeah, he loves jumping, but just now that was Eddie and Mario coming in perfectly at the end of their session. So that was a good one to, to watch. If you want to come in at that spot at Kala coming over the reef, you got to know exactly where to go and we're not to go more importantly.

Alright, that was all the footage we got. You guys have anything else to add? Any tips for learning beginner? The people getting into the sport. The one thing I would say is you really can't be too old. We got a guy here in ball float. He gets guys is hard as nails, man. He's tough guys, construction guy.

He's 72 years old. And he was a kite foiler. So he had foiling experience, but he switched over and he's getting dragged all around and everyday comes in with a smile on his face and he just can't be happy. Any happier learning something new. I think that's going throughout our group here, you learn something new, you get a challenge, you try to go further, you get a challenge and it's so rewarding when you're together with your bodies and cruising along above the water with no sound and no friction, it's actually easier on your body.

So I think that's the greatest thing about it. You don't have to be super fit. You have to be dedicated and tenacious, but the end result, if you stick with it is great. Yeah. Yeah. I would say. No matter how frustrated you are just keep going. Don't give up. Like in the end, it's rewarding.

I think also just like Jason said, just keep buying, but maintaining just try to be safe. Sometimes it's pretty scary. Like I said, I slipped my toe the other day from the foil and just got out and I didn't know it was that big, but it stood it right open, but just try to be safe and and try not to go up by yourself, like chubby with, a couple of guys or another guy, as it can get dangerous.

Was that from your retail? No, that was just from I don't know what part of the tale, but I was using the flat tail and I just, I, what I'm taking is when I fell, cause the wind was light with a shorter leash, which is only like four feet, it tends to sling back at you. And so it's, it pulled back quick on the water when I came up and it sliced my foot, I'm thinking I might have to start hitting a longer leash.

I had one before, but I just changed to a port for leash, but I think four foot is too short. Yeah. That's what I like about the retracting leashes that your board has stays away from you until you want it back again. So I'm looking at that too, looking into the like I'm tryna get along, maybe go to back to a longer leash, at least a six foot.

Cause I think the four foot is just too short. It always comes back at me real quick or it'll come back. But then the board of flip upside down, because it just it's whipping back. So the board would just spin upside down in the fall. But in the air you don't have enough, what's your ag dangerous for your wing, right?

Yeah, for my wing. And when I come up, I see it like coming at me too sometime. So I think I might change leash for sure.

Some of you are sitting and watching this video and you haven't even started winging and what you're thinking about getting into it. There's a bunch of us who would do lessons. Daniel does lessons, Danny does lessons, and we've seen the progression of how people learn. So if you can find someone to help you, that's very helpful.

They don't have to be a professional instructor. You can find one. That's great, but if you don't have one in your area, find a experienced winger. And because there's certain safety things about winging that you need to learn. And then make your experience a lot more fun and then faster.

A faster learning curve, if you get good instruction, because like you can like when Rob and I first tried to, when we, the first thing we did was a five mile dollar lender and we figured it out along the way, but that's not really the way to do it. Cause you know, you can get stuck out there, the wink and therefore can flip over and puncture the wing and then you're stranding, so there's things like self rescue leashes and all these safety things that you need to learn. So you have find someone who you think is competent at your beach and see if they can give you some pointers and then get the proper equipment like Jared was saying, you might need some bigger equipment.

And then you can also do things like learn on a sub board, just get a sub board and just practice, swing handling on that. You don't even need to have before and then incorporate the four later. Yeah, so getting some kind of advice is very helpful. If you cannot do that, then Rob has a whole bunch of really good videos that he's posted.

And there's other good videos online about how to wing. There's a whole series by ozone. There's other guy gunner. He also has a bunch, but he used to go on YouTube and search how to wing. You'll be surprised how much stuff pops up, but spend some time investigating and researching that and learning before you go out.

And and then yet I'm sure, whatever you do when you get out there. You'll I guarantee you'll have a good time. If you take it the proper steps, we know one at a time, so it's very addicting and it's also rewarding at the same time. Yeah, Damian, Leroy. Those guys are doing some really good videos too instructional videos online.

So yeah, there's a lot of good information on YouTube for sure. And yeah, for beginners, what else was I gonna say? Yeah. Sorry for Robert. Yeah. Yeah. I was going to mention that try to learn one thing at a time. Don't try to learn foiling and weeing at the same time.

Basically. You want to learn the wing hand Lang separately. Jeff was saying either on a standup paddle paddleboard with ideally with a daggerboard like an old windsurf board works long. Cause it keeps you up when better. And then yeah. Skateboard boards are great, except that people can tend to damage their wings easily.

If you drag the wing tip on the asphalt, Dennis kind of ruin it, but so you want to avoid that. You want to avoid that for sure. But yeah, it's that's it for me. That's how I learned how to tack basically as on escape me to figuring out how to tack and shift the wing over your head and stuff like that.

Because you can just take your time and you're not going to come off the foil and stuff like that. And then, yeah, and this practicing a lot on the beach with the wing, just getting used to the wing, handling, understanding how to lift up the tip, but keep it. Keep the wing pulling you forward without touching the tip on the water, basically.

And that's a skill you can learn before you get in the water and save you a lot of falling in and getting back on again. The other thing is going out on the right day. You want 15 miles an hour or 15 to 20 when you first start, because if you go out in 10, you're just gonna, you're gonna float around.

And if it's over 20, you're probably going to get blown off the water. Right guys. Yeah. Yeah, it's actually funny. Cause the first wing that I got duo only had one, three meters size wing available. So I sent it and so I had to learn on a three meter wing and could really only go out when it was like blowing 25 knots or something like that.

But then it worked fine. That's actually why I, the opposite situation, I got a six meter rolls on wasp and I, again, taking my own advice, there was probably way too much wind. It was about 25 miles an hour over the six meter ozone and in the 186 liter, easy foil that easy for that. I bought from you, Robert where the huge front Wang.

And when I was over foiling, I was going over to the side and the thing, it was just, it was a mess, but then you learn and then you get a smaller setup and you get dialed in. Yeah. And yeah, one thing that's really cool about winning the thing is that it's just not, it's not as is Agora surfing or is this everyone's welcoming?

There's like plenty of room. There's like a lot of places you can go there's you can ride waves that other people don't really want to ride anyways, where there's like a diamond and we just go off to the side where none of the surfers want to go anyways, cause the waves are too soft over there, but Yeah.

Is this allows you to get out, get away from the crowd like Danielle was saying, and then you don't have all the, you don't, you're not like packed at a point where the wave breaks and everybody's like shimmying to get the perfect spot to catch the wave. And so on. Is this more you get more time on the foil and more time having fun and not stressing about stuff, I think, and so it's great ways to get, sorry, go ahead, Jason.

Yeah, you don't have to paddle. You just catch a wave and you don't have to paddle back out to catch a wave. You just pull down to the wind and get back out and get another wave and that's pure enjoyment. Just hear everybody cheering each other on it. So you guys noticed when you're over at diamond head and the, all the surfers, the prone surfers are just laying in the water and they're envious and they're looking at you like, geez, man, like I got to paddle for waves and wait for waves.

And I can't see waves. That's the thing I just love about it because you can just zip all around. You're really, if it's windy enough you're never really in the water unless you're doing a Trek and fall. We have this good spot here, which is like a foiler is paradise. And it happens in a winter and it's called Kahana Bay.

And when that thing is smoking weed, when we get about an and good waves, we get about 60 guys, all in that Bay of foils. So now us wingers started whinging behave. We go way out and come in like bumps. And I get like Texas, like messages, good to see out there, buy a home. Next time it rains. Like we just, we get, like I told my friend, you should try winging it.

And he said, no, I don't like it. And I said, okay I'm just going to catch 20 ways to your ways that Kahana is like, no, you're not. And I'm like, okay. So I showed him, I'm going to catch so much waves. You'll probably only catch three for your whole two hours. So that's fun too. Cause it's blowing on shore.

So it's really hard to paddle back out. Yeah. It takes a long time to get all the way back to the outside and you're paddling and yeah. And even pumping out as hard too, because you pumping into the wind. So it's so hard. Exactly. So when we get like people like us swingers from the South shore and then the North shore guys come down and we meet up at Kahana and we're we get our own like all the filers with big smiles on our face.

I'm like,

Go off. Yeah. Yeah. On any last words?

I appreciate your stoke there. Thanks for including me, Robert Aloha. Thanks for Jenny has Jed. Can't wait for you to come back in August. Thanks Daniel. You guys are so welcoming. It was just, I had the greatest time. And again, I just met you guys a couple of weeks ago and Robert and I have been going back and forth, but sharing the stoke and being on the wave with you is just been amazing.

I've just had a great time. So thanks for your, you did super good. I was amazed how you. You like switching stance and whatnot. I'm like, I can't even do that. Like I should sing ah, it's so funny. Sure. You could, but again, we don't have the waves, so we, we do different stuff. I was funny.

I was talking to one last little tip here. I was, I'm actually learning how to go with my feet right next to each other, like my shoulders, my feet, or anything, my shoulders. So that, helps you get your four and a half foiling and your side to side foiling. And it kinda makes just everything a lot easier in terms of switching feet.

And I may be telling you guys something you, you already know, but for folks out there who are just going from foiling to jiving, to learning how to tack, that's a great way to get your balance in order, and to keep your feet together and actually go through the jive both ways with your feet right next to each other, right.

Or any of your body. It's a great way to learn and then just switch your feet. Yeah. Yeah, I did here, I think here on Oahu, like there's only like a handful of guys that can switch on one of them is Jeff. Is this I think Zach and Glen L can too. Jeff, but it's so hard. Like the rest of us, we really want to try, like I tried and I almost eat my fate my fault.

And I'm like, I'm over this yeah. It's not so hard to, I think you have to learn it on a bigger, more stable board where you can touch down and switch your feet. And I did it at one time, like on a six, six Oh, and a bigger, wider Senate paddleboard. And I could do it like Hawaii, Kai and water, but then on a smaller was like, yeah, it's like impossible.

So I gave up on it again. Yeah, I think it's the crating background. So that's why he's talking, going out switch and I switched. But for those of you out there, we have this Awahoo wing foyers group. It's a WhatsApp chat group and there's some hilarious back and forth going on over there as well as some awesome videos and photos being posted.

But the one recurring one that comes up is switch. And there's maybe the prompt filers are the pretty much don't switch because they're used to just staying in one stance. And then the kiters like, they're pretty used to switching from creating. And then, so the topic will come up switch and Derrick's done most notorious.

He goes, what new needs switch? And then Zach and Grinnell popping what? What's so hard about switching. So is it recurring just so you guys know it pops up every. So often we get this switch controversy popping up on our chat group. So it's not only on this talk here, but it's on that chat group and in the whole community on a wall, it's interesting.

I've noticed

no need to switch, right? I gotta say like switching the switching it I see the pros and cons of it. If you switch and you're going out to a wave, you better make sure you're switching back to your regular stance because you're not going to surf that wave in a switch stance. What I do.

So make sure you on your game, because when that wave is coming down, you don't want to be stuck, like getting more, but at whitewash with your wing and I can see, so that's what I can see. Like their expires, don't need to switch cause you just going right into the wave. On your good stents, but on the other hand like Darnell and Zack, where they talk about switching, I, and as I look, and I see Jared and Jeff and Zach and Glendale, like while we're all, I see them like shooting up when so hard.

And I'm like on my tool set, I'm like, and I'm losing ground. And I'm like, I wish I knew how to switch because you guys just pull up like way ahead of us. And it's ah, that's not fair. I got to learn that. What is so hard, like crystal to pull the trigger and even practice it. Yeah. The only time I actually do it is just if I get blown away down when, and have to go way back up men again, or if we're going out at diamond head, then you can just go way out in one tax switch and go all the way up to the break.

So that's the only time I've ever switched. Cause you're right down yet. If you. Once you tap, finish your tack, you got to jump your feet and then go back out, so you gotta make that jump basically. Yeah. If there's ways right before the wave, it's sketchy, but I see Jeff he goes way out to see like the whales.

I'm like, Oh my God. Then he starts coming back in, like on his switch stand side and just sheeting in like hard. And I'm like, Oh man, like even getting up. Sometimes I used to see him just get up on his switch side, which is pulling him like almost punch like straight into with the wave and getting up with the wave.

It just makes you get up on flow easier. And so I'm like, huh, man. I wish I knew how to switch, but it's just, I dunno, I don't want to put a trigger. I got to stick with Derek and Morty there.

I give you guys credit for switching now, man. Yeah. And I just wanted to say Jed to the reason why I invited you is because you like, your stoke level is so high. I mean that you get up at three in the morning to be on a zoom call with us and just like emailing me like five times a day about your new board and whatever.

Clearly they excited about waiting for them to have that kind of stuff. Stoke level. Just great to be with people who share a passion for being outside, getting exercise. Getting those endorphins going. I totally liked Damien Leroy cause he, he talks about a lot of fun stuff.

Like getting out there, shoulders, share the stoke of Aloha, treat others the way you want to be treated, get through life and have a good time while you're doing it. Cause you're only going to do it once. So I think we're all together on that one. Yeah. All right. I think that's a good note to end it up on.

Hey, thank you everyone for watching the video and Aloha. I'll see you next time. We'll have to do this again. Next time we have some good footage. We'll show it again. Thank you guys. Bye-bye.

Blue Planet,SUP,Stand Up Paddleboarding,paddle boarding,Mark Raaphorst,Wing foil,Podcast,Interview,Wing surf,wing,wingsurf,wing foil,foiling,Robert Stehlik,surf,hawaii,wing foil gear,how to wing foil,foil wing,SUP foil,surf foil,foil surfing,wing foiling,wing surfing,surf foiling,wing surf,wing surfer,foil board,Blue Planet Show,podcast,SIC,Sandwich Islands Construction,sup racing